thanks, I tried it earlier as Zak entered the room she eyed him so I got her to do a sit she grumbled but did as she was told...so may be thats the way to go.

When we are at the table she is never near us she is usually on the settee, as she knows she gets nothing from the table its just if Zak comes near she will take it upon her self to tell him to get away.

Only a quickie this time coz it's all been said what I wanted to say. I think the thing here is, Zeita has got to know (think!) that she is the most important thing to you, and probably unbeknown to you, you have been giving her more fuss and attention than Zak which only reiterrates what she already has in her own head, i.e. she can do no wrong. She goes out on her own, Zak is left behind sometimes, again telling her that she gets to have the nice long walks whilst Zak stays home, then you go to training etc. etc. etc. If this was happening in my house, I would tend to detatch myself somewhat from her, and make more of a fuss of Zak, even to the point of giving him a hug and sending her away or just ignoring the fact that she's come in on it, coz she probably does! Try and think about what you're doing a bit more at home, i.e. the favouring of Zeita (and who could blame you, even if you don't realise it yourself!). She then gets to have hers after Zak, that kind of thing. I'm sure it will make her think that maybe she's not the top dog in your eyes and thereby it might make her think that you won't always be on her side if she goes to have a go at Zak? This might be a load of cods Mel, but it's worth a try maybe?!

Does she have a 'leave it' command? It is such a great one as it can cover so much. Cosmo tries to do this with Biff...and we now tell him to leave it...which he does (well sometimes...) He fixates on Biff, especially when they come inside, then leaps on him, so I have taken to distracting him with a handful of kibble thrown a distance away, whilst Biff comes in and by the time he's in Cosmo isn't interested anymore. Distraction works well...then you can teach what you do want (if you see what I mean)....
A houseline sounds good too.

As for the feeding thing...I agree with what the others have said and think it probably won't make much difference.

Good luck x

it does make sense to be honest,

good idea she has a good "leave it" so might be worth a try too, she has been a bit better since Zak told her off. And I have done some distraction work with her too so fingers crossed Miss Bossy is learning.

I am also learning to ignore her demands for cuddles as she will just sit or stand up on me for a fuss and used to get one lol

Ok... this may not be 'proper training' I 'm not a qualified trainer, but I can tell you what has worked with Kismet...

Kismet came as a stroppy little madam and got no better as she got older. I have had to separate more than one of these fights. I tried the separation method and it escalated things. Far from thinking "oh if I do this, then they get more attention and I get none" she seemed to take it as "look at them getting all the love as soon as I get in I'm going to wipe that wag right off their tails"... No matter how long I left it as soon as she was let in she went for them...

So... Plan B... A little bit of Dog whispering... Now I don't believe in everything Cesar Milan says... But... I do agree with a few main points... All dogs can be rehabilitated, The dogs in the house see themselves as a pack and have positions within it and All dogs live in the now... They don't fret and worry about the past and they don't old grudges...

So armed with this we tried a different approach. Kismet wanted to be pack leader, Pharaoh and Selkie don't care... So... I made Kismet Pack leader... I changed her from fed last to fed first... I let her step out ahead of them... The next time they had a fight I pulled them apart, made them both lie down, but stay in the same room, I didn't separate them. I didn't yell at them, just separated them and put them in the down and kept them in the down, then I walked away to calm down so my anxiety didn't escalate them.... then after a minute or so I allowed Kismet to get up, but Selkie had to stay down (Not that she cared, she was in bed)...

Problem solved. Kismet is now in charge and she's growing into a good pack leader, she even gives Selkie her bones sometimes.. and Selkie has a calm life.

Hmmm... this does go against some of the other good advice you have here, but... it's a different thing to try maybe if nothing else is working...

All I can say is it has worked for us. Kismet is much happier and Selkie and Pharaoh no longer get attacked... Everyone still gets lots of love...

Interesting that this approached worked for you. I did try this when we first got Hoki and had Kip. It was clear that Hoki wanted to be the boss and so I did what I could to try and enforce that position (Kip didn't care). But she was still a right madam towards Kip. So when Kip passed away and we got Stumpy, I thought I would try the 'no-nonsense' approach of deciding myself what she would and wouldn't be allowed to get away with and putting her more firmly in her place.

I do wonder whether the difference is to do with breed....Kismet is what I would class as more of a pack breed(s) and maybe the pack heirachy is more ingrained for thse than it is for border collies and (and proabaly) GSDs who have a closer relationship with people (and quite often seem to think they are human rather than canine!)

True.. It is true that Kismet is the 'wolfiest' if I dare use that term... Perhaps 'doggiest' dog I have ever owned. Pharaoh and Jackjack always looked to me for leadership unquestioningly following my commands.. Selkie was more of a handful, she would seem to consider all commands I gave her then decide whether this made sense in her world view... "Yes I understand what you mean by 'sit', but what's in it for me? What do I get out of this..... Oh cheese... well then you should have said"...

Kismet listens to me, looks at the other dogs, weighs up all options, considers the cheese, then tries the opposite first to see if it's as bad as I'm suggesting. Always pushing at me and the others to test our boundaries... For me to stay 'on top' I have to be firm and unmoving in all decisions... It's been a different sort of learning process for us...

I wonder if it is her Alpha nature (she was the bossiest of the puppies), or her breed? Are all 'Northern' breeds the same? Are the bitches worse or better?

Is this a thread hijack?...

well I think it is relevent in so far as why what works for Kismet may or may not work for Zeita. And as for whether bitches are more bossy - I would say definitely (but I'd also say that goes for humans too )

(and off topic but I loved your description of the reactions to a command...Hoki's would be "ooh goodie you want me to do something for you..I know, I know, you want me to do this..No? OK, what about this? No? Well It must be this...No? oh, OK, perhaps I'm not telepathic and should actually listen to what you are saying..." )

I'm not sure if it would be the same in this case but my mum and dad had too dogs a yougster and an oldish one, and the same thing was hapening and like you they were treating the older dog as top dog, feeding him first, treats first, fuss first ect ect and they were told by a behaviorist(sp) person that they should be treating the youngster as top dog now as when they were on there own they knew that the youngster was boss but when my mum or dad where there the old dog knew they treated him like boss and the youn one didn't like it and wanted to show that he was top dog, but as soon as the startes fussing/feeding/treating the young one first the fighting stopped and they became much better