advice in getting my dogs to ignore other dogs/people around them?

i have 2 dogs, both male, both un-spayed both 2 years old. They have been brought up socially with lots of other people and dogs around, and get on brilliant, dont fight etc with any other dog, and step back if another dog snaps at them... always trying to rush over to people to get a clap and attention , but recently both have started growling at people for no obvious reason at all. Especially at night when its dark, they dont bark or growl in the house however.
My other problem with them is when out walks, they literally pull my arms out my sockets to get to other dogs to play, they ignore "nice happy" commands, and wont even look at me unless i literally scream at them and use there names before a command. I have considered dog training classes, but im a bit nervous taking them into an enclosed space with other dogs about (dont think my arms could hold them!) There is 1 guy who always seems to be out with his dog at the same time as me, regardless of when i go out, his dog is nervous of my 2, but still he trys to call them over even when he see's me struggling to hold them. I have asked him several times to please ignore and dont even look at them as im trying to get them to ignore whats going on round and about them and have them listen to me only , but he never does!! Any miracle cures (or simple advice if no miracles lol ) to getting them to ignore people/dogs ... treats no longer work, they wised up to them and will only do as asked so they get a treat, soon as they get it , there off and im on ignore again! Is it time to have them both spayed, neither of them have shown any sexual interest in anything yet, even though there is a bitch next door thats in season?

Hi AxlAndChaos A few questions i'm afraid to try to help....
..are these dogs from the same litter,
..have you trained them separately,
..are you scared when you take them out in the dark ,
..what do you do when they growl,
are you becoming anxious and conveying your fear to your dogs making them protective...
I think you need to take them out one at a time and give them some individual training until they are under control. If a dog pulls I stop and only walk on when the lead is slack and praise when walking properly...you can't do this with two dogs at a time ..
..talk to the chap, ask if he can help you, tell him your dogs are 'in training'
and say it is important not to call them because it will distract them. Be very polite and a bit helpless

Mini has given you some good advice, I too had to do the stop start for my Rottie and it worked to a certain degree but then I changed tactic and when he pulled I just turned around and started heading off in a different direction and then when he follwed and was walking nicely we then turned back in the ther direction, he soon learned that staying by my side was best - different things work for different dogs but I totally agree with Mini that you need to do some 1 to 1 training.

Another thing to remember when training is to stay calm, when Im training my dogs the only I speak is to give the command and to praise them, shouting and getting angry doesn't do any good, not that Im saying you do.

If you dont want to go to a training class perhaps you could get a trainer out to you ?

Hi, i have tried training them seperately and they do fantastic on there own ... for a very short time then they get stressed and whine and howl etc becasue the other isnt with them , they are brothers from the same litter, never been seperated for more then 10 minutes. Im not scared of the dar, i actually prefer walking in the dark at night. When they growl at people i tend to just try and distract them, and if that doesnt work they get a sharp "no" and a tug in the other direction. When they pull i stop and about turn and go in the other direction, but once they have there sights on something they arent for budging and it ends up a battle of strentgh (thanfully i usually win, but i have several times pulled a muscle in my arm and below my ribs with the pulling)

I dont get angry at them, if they misbehave i try and ingore it ... but for them to listen to a command like come if they are off lead they wont even look at you unless you say it in a tough angry tone (which i know is bad, but its all that works) .... thay have mastered sit and paw though lol only took 2 years for those commands to sink in ... also in the house, they will come sit stay etc, it is only outside i have the problem, in the house they are little angels, but outside there a law unto themselfs ..
Just wondering they know i am the boss in the house, i made that clear from a very early stage, done as dogs do and pinned them down and growled at them etc making it clear im the alpha ... is it possible they are trying to be the dominent ones outside?

forgot to mention, i use training harnesses which are supposed to stop them pulling, goes with there natural leg action, (similar to the easy walk harness, but made by mikki) doesnt work though they still pull!

Hi AxlAndChaos..
..I would say here lies a lot of your problems and this is one reason I don't think two puppies from the same litter is a good idea..they really do need extensive seperate training and IMO should not go out together until they both behave well individually...

...sorry I am not an advocate of this sort of alpha rolling training ever with any dogs ....aggression breeds aggression and I think this sort of training is counterproductive..I prefer positive reinforcement/reward based training .

I know exactly how you feel here:

Before we moved the kids in my old neighbourhood really liked my dogs which was great but as much as I told them to try to help me out because I was training, everytime they set eyes on me and the dogs especially Kody they would come running towards us calling the dogs, course making the dogs run to them...lol...I didn't want to be mean to the kids so I didn't say anything for a long time but then I did keep asking them to not do that and to help out instead, even giving them treats to give the dogs and getting them to tell them sit etc but each time they saw us again they would have forgotten!! It made it real hard for me cuz other people and kids freak out if my dogs even start pulling in their direction then I had these kids encouraging it, so I know how you feel with this guy...and then you feel mean if you just stop and walk the other way because the dog is pulling and you think they will wonder what the hell is up with you...lol...One thing I learnt is that you can't think about what other people are thinking!!...Do whatever it takes to get your training done nomatter what is going on around you

Good luck and I will watch your post because even though my two arn't to bad I still have trouble from time to time with my boy pulling to other dogs and people.

Hi
I agree with everything that's already been said, especially about positive reinforcement and the need to train the 2 of them seperately, if necessary not walking them together again until they're well behaved. If they get upset when you leave one behind, have you tried filling a kong for them and only giving it to them when you leave them alone?They'll soon begin to associate with with something nice happening.
When you are out and they begin the negative behaviour again once the treat has gone keep the treat in your hand and don't let them have it until the other dog has passed, you end up with slobbery fingers but it works, the treat is withinn their reach but they don't get it until they've done as they are supposed to!!!! Just come back from class with very soggy gloves as we were weaving in and out of lots of other 6month plus pups!!!! Ember had my hand (and treat ) in his mouth the whole time, but didn't even look at the other dogs! (He wasn't like that 6 months ago believe me!) Hope this helps!

Thank you all so much for the replies...
I have been training them seperatly and like i mentioned they are great when seperate but only for a short time as they start to pine for there other half, in the house both are brilliant, barely leave my side in the house.
As for me playing the alpha, thats the advice i was told at the time, when they were yopunger they were trying to dominate my child in the house and i was told i should make it known I was the boss and when they snapped at or tried to be rough with the child i had to intervene ... maybe it was the wrong advice , but i have to say it did work, they have never snapped or tried to take control over anyone in the house since, i listen to and follow most advice given as i have no experience with 2 pups, i am learning from trial and error and im sure i will now and again get bad advice
They do get hundreds and thousands of praise and treats when they do something right/good and we had a slight bit of progress today out walking!! theres a stray hangs around and trys to hump every dog it meets, and today my king chaos choose to ignore it (ok he did keep looking at it, but he never did his usual steam train routine which i was very very chuffed with, couldnt praise him enough, even though he is probably just sick of the dog lol)

It's great you had some success today!!!! I hope you don't think I was judging you or lecturing you axel I was just offering up a couple of ideas that have worked for me in the past, I'm sure you have worked hard with your dogs!!! If the dogs pine for each other, i just thought you could help them to seperate for longer periods so that you can do more training and enjoy some quality 1 to 1 time with them ( and vice versa) I know our boys LOVE that!!! Hope you get it sorted!