Mmm now more confused

lola my bt is a nightmare shes worn a muzzle when out as she has nipped other dogs before but shes got better and now only wears it when she first goes out for a run just so she doesnt bite my otheer 3 in excitment and we very rarely see other dogs in the forest as its so big.
my mate has a rottie puppy when he comes into the house i muzzel her as she has bitten him but as soon as shes out on the front garden she is playing so nicely with him no biting(well she has his leg in her mouth but doesnt actually bite him) ,

why is she so vicious in the house ? i understand her asits her terroitory but when shes on the lead shes like a maddog when she sees another one and wants to try and kill it! i thought she was frightened of other dogs but she loves this puppy rottie in the garden !
shes nearly 3, been spayed and was soicialsed with other dogs since a young age and has never had any dog have a go at her its always been her that tries to get them

Sounds defensive, she's contained (lead house ect) so she drives them away instead of running away.

Adam

bt = bull terrier? border terrier?

are you sure its not frustration and poor social skills, not aggression?

thats what i thought straight off reading your descriptions

i get the impression her upbringing with dogs has been free for all adrenaline fueled interraction, and now that's denied her thru restraint, it comes out in screaming barrier frustration.

i have dog walked and trained a boxer with the same background and behaviour traits (Better now), and i have now adopted and am training a GSD with the same.

bt border terrier dont understand your free for all comment? she has been soicialised with other dogs since young and was walked seperatly as well as with 1 other of my dogs.shes always been barky an seemingly aggresive went to pppy training and other classes but she just cant cope with other dogs near her when on a lead but cant take her off in a lesson can i?
in the house she runs up and barks then runs behind my chair unil she wants to go and see the owners when they rottie will then come and say heello again (bouncy) she starts on himand has bitten him, although he will still come back for more!!
but when they go we always put them both out the front and they have a great time

i didnt mean she hadnt been socialised, i mean how she has been socialised.

BT's are lively energetic little critters, and it seems that she has grown up associating other dogs with play time/charging around, play biting etc, but hasnt learnt to be calm around them?

so if thats the case then if she is 'denied' dogs, ie, on the lead, etc, she would get frustrated and noisy etc.

of course i dont know that as fact, as i havent seen, but thats the instinct i get from your descriptions, as i deal wit that issue quite a bit.

that would explain the difference off and on lead, so if its the case, its not dog aggression.

can you upload a video?

I would say its fear based. In an enclosed space and on the lead she can't get away so gets nervous and her way is to nip and keep them away, yet out in the open garden she has more confidence so all is fine.

I have the same problem with my Border terrier and it is because of what above quote has pointed out. mine was also went to puppy socialization classes and shared our home with his step brother also a bt same age so they constantly played as borders do (quite rough) and stupid me did not correct them. He is now 3yrs old and i am having to go back to square one with his training. this morning we met two usual dogs on our walk and using clicker and praise we past with no aggression (thumbs up) then on the home streight met a setter and nothing i did could break his focus. i dont think his is so much "i want to rip your face off aggression" his is more frustration =anxiety=stress in hindsight what i should have done is change our direction, will remember next time. anyway it is going to be a long slog and have contacted a behaviorist just to keep me on the right road. I know he has the terrier traits but my human ignorance got me in this position so its me who has to put the work in to make all our lives less stressfull. So your not alone with this problem maybe we can give eachother tips and ideas and updates. i find the info on this sight invaluable.

suex

i figured that too until i read the dog showed the same restriction responses around other dogs outside too.

I agree with krusewalker's assessment from the description of the bt's behaviour. It sounds highly like an over-excited, adrenaline-fuelled, over-the-top reaction to the presence of other dogs, made worse by the frustration of being on a lead & unable to interact. It could have been caused by lots of different factors or combinations of factors, but the main thing is how to stop it.

I sometimes see an elderly lady in the park with 2 jrts in her car. As she pulls to a stop one of the dogs goes absolutely ballistic, barking, throwing itself at the window, jumping on the other dog, ragging on it's neck. As soon as she opens the boot both dogs shoot out like bats out of hell & the same dog starts grabbing the other dog by the neck/throat & tries to throw it around. The snarling/growling is awful ~ it sounds like one dog is murdering the other. But within about 10 seconds it stops & both dogs calm down & happily go off sniffing together. She assures me that this is "just his way", no damage is done & the other dog doesn't mind (I'm not so sure about the last bit!).

If this sounds like your dog, then you need to start a counter-conditioning programme to change the highly excited behaviour to more calm & relaxed behaviour. At the same time you need to stop/prevent the excited behaviours from kicking off in the first place. This is not easily done because you need to be aware of all the triggers that start the excited behaviour ~ if you wait until the barking/biting has started you are too late. By then the adrenaline rush has started & you won't be able to get through to your dog. So this may mean preventing/avoiding any meetings with other dogs when your dog is on a lead, & not allowing other dogs to visit for a while.

Start training lots of calm, relaxed postures, do lots of static training exercises, like down stays. Start in your house & garden, then when it is reliable there, try out on walks when there are no other dogs about. Then train with dogs at a distance that doesn't trigger any reaction in your dog, then closer etc. The last place you should do this is at home when another dog is visiting.

When you have a solid, reliable sit, or down, or rollover, or whatever you choose, in lots of locations, at different times, with dogs reasonably close, then you can try training classes again, where there are other dogs near to your dog & when your dog is on a lead.

It may take time & patience & results won't be instant as this behaviour seems to be ingrained & has been going on for a while. If you think of it in terms of something that really gets you wound up/excited/pumps your body full of adrenaline ~ then try to imagine reacting differently (i.e. calmly) to that same trigger ~ it's not easy for us, & we can rationalise & understand our reactions. Imagine what it must be like for your dog who doesn't understand! It's up to you to change a highly-charged emotional reaction that is classically-conditioned & linked with an extremely strong physiological reaction, to a totally different behavioural, emotional & physiological response to the same triggers. Not easy & will need time & patience ~ but best of luck.

Well done Sue ~ you recognise the causes & know what has happened over the last 3 years that has made it get worse. Don't beat yourself up for allowing this situation to occur ~ it could happen to any of us. The important part is how you can now deal with it.

With the reaction to the setter ~ you knew the answer ~ avoid, avoid, avoid!!! Once your dog's response has started you are too late. Far better to avoid these confrontations & work on a thorough counter-conditioning programme where you can control the triggers & prevent the big emotional reaction whilst instilling a calm & relaxed state.