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Swifty
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28-08-2016, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Hal was indifferent about being patted, and not interested at all in treats. He liked - in his aloof way - squeaky exciting voice with lots of joshing rather than actual physical touch.

You are on the right track here, but voice is only important when the physical touch reinforcement can not be given, in a full praise situation you will touch and praise at the same time. I teach all my dogs to retrieve and catch this way. The negative with food is that the dog becomes a ticket collector, always returning for the price of admission or work which is a cookie.
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Chris
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28-08-2016, 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
But did you only move for your boss if he gave you a cookie?

I doubt it, and this is what food in dog training represents.
I wouldn't have worked without pay unless I found the job was satisfying in itself (ie something I enjoyed).

Pay and enjoyment = happy and a fast route to learning new projects. It's just the same for dogs, IMHO.
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Chris
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28-08-2016, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
You are on the right track here, but voice is only important when the physical touch reinforcement can not be given, in a full praise situation you will touch and praise at the same time. I teach all my dogs to retrieve and catch this way. The negative with food is that the dog becomes a ticket collector, always returning for the price of admission or work which is a cookie.
Not if you vary the reinforcement. Think of it like playing a slot machine. Sometimes you get a small reward, sometimes you win the jackpot. What keeps you playing the machine is the hope of the jackpot even though you don't win it every time
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Swifty
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28-08-2016, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Chris View Post
I wouldn't have worked without pay unless I found the job was satisfying in itself (ie something I enjoyed).

Pay and enjoyment = happy and a fast route to learning new projects. It's just the same for dogs, IMHO.
Do you get the feeling that this dog, who was trained to do tricks, is happy? because I do not.

http://blog.pdus2go.com/special-edit...og-new-tricks/

Now is this dog happy? I say so

http://www.earmtngriffons.com/Griffers%20DW.JPG

Both dogs are standing but only one is happy, and only one needed to be trained at all. If you need to train with food (bribe) perhaps it should not be trained at all.
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Chris
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28-08-2016, 02:24 PM
Why do I get the feeling that you are clutching at extremes
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Dibbythedog
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28-08-2016, 02:35 PM
Swifty, you're not really posting a logical argument here .

What dogs like or dislike depends on the dog!

My dogs would not like going on a boat, I know that for a fact , they don't like going for a paddle or swimming either
yet my old lab loved it .

I don't know if they would like balancing on a ball as I've never tried to teach them that and like most other experienced regular members here , would not make a dog do something it didn't want to do as a trick.
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Swifty
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28-08-2016, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Dibbythedog View Post
Swifty, you're not really posting a logical argument here .

What dogs like or dislike depends on the dog!

My dogs would not like going on a boat, I know that for a fact , they don't like going for a paddle or swimming either
yet my old lab loved it .

I don't know if they would like balancing on a ball as I've never tried to teach them that and like most other experienced regular members here , would not make a dog do something it didn't want to do as a trick.
I am being logical, the griffon standing on the ball would never have liked this on his or her own, and the dog still does not like it. Thus it was trained and this training only shows the domineering behavior of the trainer. The dog standing on a ball is no different than a bear doing this


Most of animal training is sick and sad, dog training by owners who think they care are no different.
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Chris
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28-08-2016, 03:14 PM
I'm struggling here to understand whether it is using treats in training that you are against or training itself?
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Dibbythedog
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28-08-2016, 03:28 PM
Me too, Chris.
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Dibbythedog
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28-08-2016, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
I am being logical, the griffon standing on the ball would never have liked this on his or her own, and the dog still does not like it. Thus it was trained and this training only shows the domineering behavior of the trainer. The dog standing on a ball is no different than a bear doing this


Most of animal training is sick and sad, dog training by owners who think they care are no different.
yes , its wrong but no one here is saying animals should be forced to do tricks or forced to do anything . We are saying the opposite , that we should use PR to train dogs.

Are you against training dogs to recall or to sit or to toilet train them . I would not be able to let my dogs off the lead if I did not train recall for example so some training is necessary to allow our dogs to lead a fuller life,

You started this thread about not using food as reward and to use only praise and most of us saying that using food is a useful positive reinforcer .
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