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Location: Birmingham UK
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 20,832
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13-01-2010, 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle 
If someone approached me saying they wanted a pup but would not be letting it off I would not be happy about them having one....
If someone took a pup home and for some reason the pup could never be let off the lead I would not rush to take it out of the situaiton.
I see no need to enforce a no off lead time rule with any of my dogs (Well - Tassle was for a big part of last year - but that was injury), but I still feel that if needed a dog can be provided with what it needs without the off lead stuff.
As I said before - I would certainly hope that people could adapt to give thier dogs everything they needed in the event they had to, for what ever reason, keep them on a lead.
I have to say I would have to think hard too about taking a rescue that could not be let off, (Not saying I wouldn't, just have to think about it) as it would seem unfair to me with ours being allowed to do so.
I know rescues can take more time but I would like to think that with enough training a time will come when they can enjoy playing about with the others off lead.
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Location: Oldbury, West Midlands
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,232
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13-01-2010, 01:31 PM
i personally think the ideal is that dog have a mix of on and off lead walks, and being able to let them off safely is most important to me. we are having our fencing made higher so that our dog can safely enjoy tearing around the garden - but that wouldn't replace off lead running. i love seeing dogs running free - but i don't like dogs out of control, there has to be a balance.
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Location: Preesall, Lancashire
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,622
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13-01-2010, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by labradork
Well you'd have to if wanted to kill other dogs.
What on earth happened as to why he is that aggressive (wanting to kill other dogs) out of curiosity? 
However, the latest thinking is that he is incredibly possessive over me and Murphy, his younger brother; and this leads to aggression. He also hates black dogs (labs, darker GSD's, newfs etc).
He is very territorial in the garden, and when another dog got in our garden (a young JRT bitch), there was a huge fight which involved a £300 vet bill for us, me having multiple bite wounds (from the JRT) and having to have very strong words with our next door neighbours.
If OH walks Max, he is much better, though will growl and posture at other dogs on the opposite side of the road.
If I walk him/train him etc in the same situation, he would try and drag me across the road to get to the dog to attack it.
We've been working for about a year now on it, as I find it horrible to have to deal with.
Max can now be onlead around other dogs and ignore them, provided they are not staring him out or barking at him. He can't be offlead around other dogs though (other than family/approved dogs) as his instincts are just too much. He will chase down (and he is as fast as a greyhound) and attack any other dog he feels are too close to me or Murphy.
It's quite a difficult one to deal with. He will act 'properly' in training classes, then try to drag me across the road to another dog he has seen a billion times before who has never even looked at him.
However, he does have very good recall, and if I spot a dog, I can call him over and clip his lead back on easily enough. We will then sit and wait and be CALM whilst said dog walks past us. If I've got OH with me, I'll hand him Max and go and speak to the other owner and try and pet their dog with Max remaining CALM. It's difficult when I walk them on my own a lot though.
We had a small triumph the other week though. I was walking them alone and was startled by a small off lead Westie (dinner!) with no owner in sight. It was barking and snapping at them; and I frantically ran the other way and shouted "bye bye!!!". Both boys turned away from the Westie and ran towards me without another look. Previously, Max would have tried to attack it (even if it wasn't making a racket). Small steps!
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Location: Oldbury, West Midlands
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,232
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13-01-2010, 01:39 PM
glad to hear they ran away, the little one wouldn't stand much chance
does murphy follow max's lead?
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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13-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd
The difference with all of your examples and the hunting instinct is just that - it's an instinct. Human beings have bred it into the dogs, we've made them this way - it's soley what the dog lives for! Rolling in mud isn't an instinct, it's something that is unique to the dog, it's a desire. Eating faeces is part of a dogs make-up and generally a learned behaviour from the Dam, but it's not his sole purpose for living. It's a habit, a quirk. They do it because they want to, because they can, not because they need to. Hunting is not a desire, but a hard wired instinct.To deny them their reason for being in life (which us humans bred into them btw) is cruel, end of story.
To be happy, satisfied, whatever you want to call it, a working bred HPR needs to be allowed off lead to hunt.
To say you think you know every single dog's necessity to be off lead on Earth is ridiculous Ailsa! Sorry to be so frank.
This is innate...it's a breed thing.You didn't mention sexual behaviour in your response either...we stop them doing that and they do have a strong urge to do it.
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
so where does Moll fit in to this then, her problem is she lives to hunt, she's not been trained to do it, its in her breeding and this is her problem, nothing i can do when we are out is as satisfying to her as hunting, i even once took out a raw chicken wing to get her to come back and she wasn't interested she just wanted to hunt, which is why a) she probably ended up in the pound and B) why she's spends a good part of her life on lead, and no i don't feel guilty she is safe and loved and well stimulated mentally.
When she does run its frantic its hard to describe but it does get her so hyped its unreal to the point that when you do put her back on her lead she ends up darting about on her back legs like a meercat, when she is walked on her lead like Ailsa she is allowed to sniff and hunt around in a controlled manner, this coupled with the bits of training thrown in seem to calm her much more than running aimlessly, yes she was bred to hunt, and yes its lovely to see her run, but she doesn't actually need it
Originally Posted by Tassle
Then lets hope yours never has to be.
There are many reasons why dogs - even of this breed, that end up having to be kept on a lead. Luckily there are owners out there who can think outside the box and provide a life for the dog that can leave it confident and satisfied.
But to say it is cruel is not fair on the people who have to keep thier dogs on a lead and will do everything in thier power to give the dog the best life they can.
Originally Posted by Loki's mum
But some dogs would be. My Mum's late dog Lottie for example, could only settle after an offlead walk. Even training didn't work. Mental stimulation is important, but some dogs, like some people do need a great deal of physical exercise.
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Will jump in here, this is just not true, the way you are seeing it.
The fact that Cosmo eats his own mess and rolls in mud can be stopped, its not "inherent" its allowed. You cannot say that in the same breath as a dog that was bred to run, hunt and retrieve for long periods of time over hundreds of years. Its what they are.
Whilst I understand your points Ailsa, I do feel you are defensive because this works for you and Tango, if Tango was a dog with good recall and social skills, I expect all the stuff you do on a lead would be history and never thought of, you would just enjoy your walks with the dogs galloping and exploring because they wanted to and they could, not because you said "do this" or "lets do that."
They are renowned for it Dawn, it isn't a learned behaviour and it is VERY difficult to stop. They don't NEED to do it but they do have a compulsion to do it. The same with sexual behaviour (but I do admit the mud thing was pushing it! )As to Tango? Nope I am not defensive as her problems are not of my making. She is the result of poor training in a working environment, bless her and she is coming on a treat.
My experience with a lot of dogs though is with lead work and I can promise you they are fulfilled with it.
Originally Posted by IsoChick
OMG - have just read everything since 5.30 last night
Boxers CAN be incredibly high energy, indeed, moreso than gundogs. The 'worst' part about it is that they have no 'natural outlet' for some of their energy, as the task they were bred for no longer exists; i.e. gundogs can be 'worked' to satisfy their energy needs.
(Of course, you can 'work' Boxers. They do well at Flyball, Agility and obedience work. Around Europe, they are used as police dogs - look up ATIBOX on YouTube)
We over-stimulated Max when he was younger, insomuch as he wasn't happy without 4 or 5 hours of off-lead manic-ness outside the home/garden environment EVERY DAY. If he didn't get this, he became destructive and aggressive, including nearly breaking most of my face one day.
Happily, with lots of persistant training, he is no longer like this.
In terms of his energy levels, he can (and has) paced an Arab ex-racehorse at a good canter for 10 miles through woodland (a bit like a carriage-dog) without tiring. When finished, he wasn't frothing, panting, wanting to lay down. He was ready for more playing.
Max can't be off lead around most other dogs very often. He will instinctively attack them without any provocation and can do some real damage.
I'm lucky enough that 99% of the time I can let my dogs off lead on the beach as there are no other dogs there.
However, if I couldn't do this, I would permanently walk him on a lead. No sweat. I'd rather do that to him than risk him attacking and killing another dog (which he would) or injuring himself.
He was on-lead for most of our Scotland holiday and didn't suffer at all. In fact, he was more chilled than usual and incredibly tired - woo!
P.S. Murphy would rather be on the sofa than a) outside or b) on a walk. As long as his food bowl is within reach.
I love your two!
I gave up trying to keep up with the thread after this.
The question is 'does a dog NEED a good run?'
My answer is NO.
It does not NEED it...it may like it/enjoy it/it maybe excited about it...but it does not NEED it.This is not a thread about the politics of off or onlead walking...or how good someones's on or offlead walk is. I have just had my two out together for over an hour and a half in woodland. They are both exhausted. Cosmo was offlead hunting squirrels and Tango was onlead doing a variety of things with my OH (which included saying hello to 2 dogs and barking and spining at another one...one step forward and all that). Both are snoring. Cosmo would have been just as 'satisfied' had he also been onlead. He didn't NEED to be offlead...I just wanted him to be and he enjoyed it.
For the record I am not sensitive about this issue. If you check back a couple of years there was a similar thread and I said the same things (my argument has developed since having Tango and reading and speaking to people about keeping her occupied on lead) but I know for sure now it can be done. I am not sensitive about what I do with her, far from it, I am exceptionally proud of her and how far she has come. I am not touchy about the whole onlead thing (unless the word 'cruel' is thrown around).
I just do not think dogs NEED offlead exercise...a NEED is something essential to life in my book...something you cannot live without. You don't NEED exercise.
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Location: Preesall, Lancashire
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,622
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13-01-2010, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by Insomnia
sounds like he is improving. i know what you mean about baby steps- sometimes its anything that isn't backwards is great!
glad to hear they ran away, the little one wouldn't stand much chance
does murphy follow max's lead?
When the dog got in the garden, Murphy just ran round barking his head off. He didn't really 'get' what was going on.
In terms of the little Westie, it's owner was about 500 yards away, on their mobile phone. I went to find them and give them a piece of my mind about off lead dogs with no supervision!
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Location: dogsville
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13-01-2010, 02:01 PM
Yet here is a thread where I say specific dogs NEED offlead exercise to destress...
I also still agree with that but as I said earlier in this thread, I don't think working dogs fall into the same bracket as pets.
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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13-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Nope. The vast majority of FCRs eat poo...ask any breeder. They are renowned for it Dawn, it isn't a learned behaviour and it is VERY difficult to stop. They don't NEED to do it but they do have a compulsion to do it. The same with sexual behaviour (but I do admit the mud thing was pushing it! )
As to Tango? Nope I am not defensive as her problems are not of my making. She is the result of poor training in a working environment, bless her and she is coming on a treat.My experience with a lot of dogs though is with lead work and I can promise you they are fulfilled with it.
If you claim she is the result of poor training, why do you think with all your experience you have not been able to at least have minimal control and allow her to run loose and be a "dog?" NONE of this is meant as a criticism at all, Im just interested.
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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13-01-2010, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Since working in the field Ailsa, I have worked with plenty of Flat Coats and their owners and breeders, strangely, none of them have ever mentioned it. Likewise I have never seen one of these "compulsive" dogs stop in their work and eat mess of any description. Its a learned behaviour, one the owner allows. Loads of dogs would do it given chance, my own puppy displayed intent on eating Rabbit poo, didnt take long to stop it though.
If you claim she is the result of poor training, why do you think with all your experience you have not been able to at least have minimal control and allow her to run loose and be a "dog?" NONE of this is meant as a criticism at all, Im just interested.
ETA I didn't mention the faeces of other species (although they do enjoy them too) I sadi their own.
Why isn't she at the stage where I can let her run loose?
She had almost 5 years of poor training...by poor training I mean shock collar. She is a mess. She was offered to me in the first place because she needed work. These things take time Dawn and she has only been here for 8 months. In that time she has been spayed and hospitalised through illness afterwards...she was also attacked by a Border Terrier who's owner always free runs her dog...but has no recall and spends her time chatting with other owners
May not be a criticism Dawn but it is certainly starting to feel that way.
Tango is a very sociable dog who generally wants to play with large dogs as long as they don't run. She canot cope with dogs running and she WILL stop them. A behaviour like that, which has been reinforced with a shock collar...is a very difficult behaviour to train a dog out of. We are getting there...small steps.
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