Many owners have no interest in working their dogs which does not help - all my dogs have been multiskilled

My Lab retrieves and was shown and now sleeps a lot

My Mal(s) shown, worked in various arenas and good for snuggling and my BC can and has worked sheep, obedience and great pet

I bet that your dogs have been very happy doing what they were bred for I would love to get my dogs out in the field doing what they were bred for but can't

I don't think we disagree here. I agree that conformation is important, but a breed standard should not be interpreted in a way that the resulting animal's ability to work is hindered. Perhaps the 'working' people in some instances should pay more attention to conformation, but in my opinion, a fit working dog which is not perfect according to the latest interpretation of the breed standard is less problematic than a dog which fits this interpretation but does not have the temprement or constitution for a hard day's work.

Perhaps the changes in the breeds is also a reflection of the way society has changed. Working dogs are not required to the same degree that they used to be, and therefore their the temprements of certain strains have mellowed to allow them to fit into a family environment. Perhaps this is unavoidable, and perhaps even desirable. Their bodies should still be as strong as they used to be though.

I completely agree that in both the working and show world the breeding of unhealthy dogs (for example with the eye or hip problems you mentioned) is unacceptable.

Haven't read any of the thread at all, but I say no as the dog should be able to work if it is going to win priizes,even at shows...thats my opinion anyway. Flat Coats are very much a dual purpose breed so that may be why,

I think you're right, but what intrigues me is......

If this is the case then how come 99% of pet Springers are working type and not show type?

I think we do agree on most points, personally if people have no interest in the working side of a breed then perhaps they'd be better with a Chihuahua or the like (no offence intended!)? For me half of the attraction of the ESS is the job it was originally bred to do and I'll do everything I can to make sure this stays in the show type, along with a fair few others of course.

That would include me then as while I respect the working type of labs its not something that overly interests me.

For what its worth there shouldnt be to standards. I dont like it in labs seeing purely working labs and purely showing and imo non of which look how I would imagine at lab to look.

I was talking about breeders!

i am going to come from a totally different angle now, i think that they should be recognised as two different breeds, not for showing or working purposes but purely in terms of information for jo public certainly with the springers. As mentioned earlier in the thread most of the springers in pet homes are working type, little with boundless energy and nothing like in temperament of their show cousins (and i'm not saying they are not capable of working) and here in lies the problem. I work in springer rescue last week we had 9 dogs to come in 8 workers and 1 show, the show is a genuine change in circumstances, all the workers are because people didn't realise what work they needed and just couldn't cope, i believe if the information was more freely available and the differences made very clear, then maybe we wouldn't have to find homes for 200 dogs a year

Regarding the statement in bold type, I am imagining it is similar to border collies, in that working springers are far more easily available? I remember a friend looking for a show type springer pup and, even though he did eventually get one, he had to wait quite a long time, as they seem to be few and far between, whereas there are plenty of working springer pups practically always available.

If they're not classified as seperate breeds for working or showing, then how would they be seperate breeds?

I don't think splitting the breed up again is the answer, genepools are already small enough without reducing them further. At leats if they're still all ESS you can cross between the two types.

I do agree re information, however, it does make me wonder if the adage "you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink" comes into play. If you Google English Springer Spaniel the first two results clearly spell out the difference between the working and show type. I think a lot of the time people just decide they want a puppy and are happy to take the first thing that becomes available. Which is exactly why they end up in resuce!

I think that is probably the case, which isn't a bad thing tbh. It just made me wonder how the working types fitted in re the change in society and people wanting easier dogs to live with.