I love that I've disagreed with almost everything you've said Gnasher, yet I still think you're great!

We could put the mods out of business at this rate and certainly makes a change form ''that other'' thread!!

Magpye - a group hug thread is pushing it imo ;o)

Juts popped on to have a nosey.. and spotted this, having just started a group hug thread for Shona!
It is good when a discussion is a good and pleasant one, well done all!
Now check out my Shona thread...

I know darling, I was beginning to think you didn't like me ! And here you are saying I'm great !!

Well I never

I will Ramble. Back in a sec.

Oh but I do like you. the reason being that even though we have very different opinions we've been able to respect that in each other and not try to slam our own views into someone. THAT is what debate is all about, not bitching and sniping and trying to make people feel bad/silly/stupid etc.

Now, p off you wolf lover!! ;o)

Just spotted, following Pidge's insult, that "yes it is important to show them who's boss" is even Steven's with "Other" !

V-e-e-r-r-y interesting Pidge !!

yup !

Judging by the diversity of dog breeds, I would say that humans have made a fundamental difference. The physiology (internally) probably hasn't evolved much if at all, but the external and more relevantly the behavioural ones have. I think that is what is important here and back to the original point. The 'be the alpha' way of training was developed on the strength of studies done on captive wolves. So while genetically dogs and wolves are arguablely very similar, and can be be compared in that respect, behaviourally there are large differences. Those who came up with the 'alpha' training theories took the physiological similarities between dogs and wolves and assumed that because they are so similar genetically, they must also behave the same. Obviously we know while they share behavioural similarities, many, many of those traits have been bred out of them through thousands of years of selective breeding. That is why training techniques should be catered for dogs, not wolves.

We took the wolf out of the dog long time ago, and if you insist in using the wolf comparisoin then it should be to a wolf pup.

The work of Belyaev has shown that just by choosing a simple behavioral trait - reduced hand shyness - it resulted in large morphological changes like those seen in dogs today as well as a vastly different sets of behaviors and social structures. He managed to get fully domesticated foxes in 50 years.

Your comparison of evolutionary time is misplaced, evolutions is normally slow because it relies on random nutations and natural selective pressure. As the example provided by Belyaev shows, when you apply selective breeding practices, a great deal of change can be enacted in a very short time period.

We have indeed Labradork, but this is what I mean when I say "icing on the cake". The huge difference in looks alone between the thousands and the breeds, and then those breeds and the wolf, (with the exception of certain recent wolf crosses, such as GSD, Mal, Husky etc.) is merely the icing on the cake. As you rightly say they are major differences between the dog and the wolf, but there are also major similarities. The 100,000 years of domestication is nowhere near sufficient to change wolf into dog such that to train a dog according to wolf rules is irrelevant. In other words, the dog is a pack animal, and the best way to raise and train his is according to pack rules, to the wolf pack rules. This works and I believe is the very best and kindest way to raise and train any dog. There are other ways, many other ways, of course there are, but the most natural way is the wolf way. It's got to be - the genetic evidence is there right before our eyes ! If dogs were so far removed from wolves through domestication that they were virtually a different species, then they would not still share the same DNA ! You cannot argue with science, with scientific fact ... and the facts say that dogs are wolves, with the "icing on the cake" differences.

Until the DNA shared by dog and wolf decreases in the dog, which it won't do in a million years (literally !), then I shall carry on treating and training my dogs as the domesticated wolves that they are ... very much loved and sometimes spoiled, but only when they deserve it !