I know what you are saying Shona, but I think there is more use for a good sheepdog now than there ever was, simply *because*, of the lack of hired help. One good dog can take the place of ten men, and so if you are gathering over a large area, and don't have two or three others to help, you are in desperate need of a good dog that can do the job.

Also, decent sheepdogs go for BIG money these days, much more so than in the recent past, so it just shows there is a need for these type of dogs.

I see what you are saying about farmers being limited in time, and that is fair enough and totally understandable. I was referring more to police dogs, though i should have made that clearer


Tayside and Lothian and Borders are two that have young british dogs bought as pups from UK workline breeders. Also quite a few breeders claim to supply police/prison services with dogs, so someone must be buying lol. Though I have no doubt that some/many forces have resorted to buying pups from abroad - an expensive business!

I have recently seen a dog taken as a pup by a police service who has the right genetics, but through bad/no training was rejected as unsuitable, when in different hands could have made a good police dog, as there are several littermates which I understand are doing well.

If this is happening then i would expect this to be the reason due to the lack of alrounders, plus the fact that with the quad bikes etc the dogs just dont have to do so much anymore.

A Question poser/discussion point:Are the Trials Dogs becoming another type of sports dog, away from the working Farm collie? In looks & ability & temperment? What is the % of farmers that actually want a trials dog? Are trials winners bred from other trials winners? Have trials changed from yesteryear demanding a different type of dog? (im not sure of these points hence asking?)

A fair number of police dogs are also from litters of successful schutzhund parents - a schutzhund dog may be great on the field, but not be able to manage life on the streets - as different drives/proportion of drives are required. A schutzhund dog can do very well working mainly or wholly from prey drive - I would imagine that a police dog needs more defence and fight drive - It needs to be more civil than a sports dog I would think.

There are plenty of breeders who [B]claim[B] to supply to the police and prison service ... claim being the operative word Although of course some forces do have some UK workline (and non workline) operational dogs, but it most certainly isn't as many these days as it once was.

I don't mean to be pedantic but how do you *know* this pup (with the right genetics) would make a good police dog in different hands? Just because littermates do well, doesn't automatically mean ALL the litter will work out. If it did, breeding excellent working dogs would be childsplay That said, I have seen a handler who just didn't get on with his trainee police dog on the initial course, and made all sorts of excuses about there being something wrong with the dog. The dog was given to a different, more experienced, handler and the dog passed the course with flying colours

And isn't Tip such a good example of your point

Came from a line of working sheepdogs - Father was the best worker the farmer had ever had, mother solid worker. Tip seemed to have the working drive (from watching him herd Hoki) - I was convinced that he just hadn't had the right training.

Got him in front of some sheep and well my old cat showed more likelihood of being able to work the sheep

I think many of the trial dogs ARE becoming another type of sport dog, most typically the ones who are known as *Saturday afternoon dogs" - who aren't really used for *real* work at all anymore but are bred, trained and kept purely for trialling. IMO the very best dogs (and the ones who win big titles such as the International) are the dogs who ARE worked at home on large flocks as well as on 3 or 5 sheep on a trial field. In the modern world, there are less and less true working collies, and more hobby triallists, so it would make sense that collies are being bred more for winning trials than for work. A really great and outstanding dog is one who could win a trial but then come home and work large flocks in demanding terrain.

I don't think the trials dogs look different, but the average one certainly has less proper working ability (as it isn't called upon to work large flocks) and the temperament seems to be changing to produce an *easier* dog, who is less hardy.

Trials winners are certainly used widely at stud, and even though a good pedigree doesn't automatically produce another trials winner, the dogs that do win the larger trials tend to be very good allrounders, so you have a better chance of producing a dog that can work and trial.

Very, very true - and therefore the same principles apply to both police dogs and working sheepdogs.

soooo true!

Fair enough, I wasn't questioning that the number of UK bred police gsds has declined, but there are still a good number out there.

I don't *know* that the pup would have made a good police dog in different hands, that's why I said *could have* made it in different hands However this pup had been with the police dog handler for 18 months since a 7 week old pup, and in this time and without going into the details, seems to have learned next to nothing, not even very basic bite/prey work, the effort hadn't been put into him from what I could tell.