I understand now ! Sorry for the misunderstanding !

I used to work for our local police as support staff, and right outside our window in the back yard there the dog handlers used to put their german shepherds through their paces. Let's say they weren't gentle in their techniques. When chatting to them in the canteen, I told one I thought they were sometimes extremely harsh, only to be told that's nothing love, when they first start their training we have to beat them with chains sometimes to make them aggressive !!

I don't know to this day whether he was winding me up, probably, I really hope so ! I appreciate that the dogs have to be "hard", but beating them with chains is unacceptable IMO. They either have the aggressive streak that is required, or they don't.

BTW, I am really enjoying our debate ! I am feeling a bit better this morning, so am hoping that I can follow up some of the points you have mentioned that I know nothing about ... whilst hubby's back's turned ! He gets so snappy when he thinks I am playing on the internet, as he calls it, instead of working !

She is from improrted lines - I do prefer the look of those dogs - they are much heavier than the Uk or show bred ones.

hes such a fabulous dog! thank you for the pics!

No probs, thank you so much for your lovely comments !

As you all know, Shaun Ellis has started to come on to the Cry Wolf website to answer our questions.

I have just read something very interesting on there that Shaun says about alpha dogs/wolves. Firstly, he says that true alphas are extremely rare in both dogs and wolves, betas are by far and away the most common. Fine so far, I knew this already from his lecture, books etc. He then went on to say something very interesting about CM. A Cry-Wolfer had posted the video clip of CM with Shadow, the wolf cross, where CM gives Shadow an unnecessarily hard nudge with his foot - in this instance, I would describe it as a kick - and had asked Shaun if he thought CM was using too much force. Shaun said that the manner in which CM had behaved towards Shadow was that of a high ranking Beta - a Beta Enforcer. In other words, he used too much force. Shaun is saying that, as alpha, we humans should not act as the Beta Enforcer but just as the alpha wolf would act in the wolf pack. Alphas do not dish out discipline, the Beta Enforcers do (except in very extreme circumstances).

A good alpha does not use force. Absolutely, I have never used force on either Hal or Tai. This explains Hal's reaction when OH smacked Hal for growling at him. It was the worst possible thing that he could have done, because he was not acting as Alpha Male, but as Beta Enforcer. This is not the rank that you want to present when handling your dog, you want to present as Alpha ... calm, assertive Alpha, not aggressive pain inflicting Beta Enforcer ! This is why training with force does not work, as if we needed to be told.

This has led me on to think about Hal being an alpha. And how for the first 9 years of his life, we really left him to his own devices. We taught him the basic obedience ... sit, lie down, stay ... but his recall was total crap and usually non-existent ! However, in the last year of his life when I started to use CM's techniques on him, there is no shadow of a doubt, they did work, although his recall was never perfect, more of a meander back towards you, but it was a recall nonetheless, it wasn't a total ignore as used to happen ! And I managed to stop him chasing and killing next door's chickens when they escaped out onto the set aside.

So were we right to leave him pretty much to his own devices up to 9 ? In the absence of not understanding what else to do, I think the answer is yes. However, a modified approach to the CM model definitely worked, and worked wonders. As with Shadow, had CM whacked him like that with his foot, Hal would at the very least have growled and turned his mouth on him, he wouldn't have actually bitten. So I am left still utterly convinced that we should all be Alpha to our dogs, never Beta Enforcer, and depending on the rank of your dog, use full on CM techniques, or modified, using your own judgement as to your dog's rank.

And even more than before, I think I now believe that although we must be alpha to our dogs, we do have to bear in mind THEIR rank amongst their own kind ... the rank they were born with. This is what CM is not doing, he is not making allowance for the natural rank of the dog.

The emperical evidence tells us that the views of Shaun Ellis are wrong. Wolves mate, they have pups and poof!!! Instant "alpha" There is nothing rare about this event, so unless he is using his own definition of alpha, HE IS WRONG.

His views on "beta" and discipline are pretty much worthless when oi comes to trainers, unless I can get my dog to bite my other dog on command to affect change in their behaviour. But who do I get to bite my 'beta enforcer'? Aside from that, it also happens to be wrong. From an evolutionary perspective, his ideas do not make sense; and they also violate the Principle of Parsimony, Morgan's canon, Occam's Razor. That is to say, simple explanations are better than complex one. What's worse is that he is now trying to import his flawed views of wolves into the dog world. It was bad, but mostly inconsequential since he had a fringe following and there were enough real researchers to dispute his claims. However in dog world, it is not about research and knowledge but about fame and personality, which in my opinon make him dangerous...... I guess thre is more money in dogs because more people have them so he's decided to market to a larger demographic.

Of course smacking a dog for growling is stupid. You either get to suppress the growl, thus silencing the warning that comes before a bite. This is why people say "There was no warning, he just bit"; my bet is that these dogs have been punished for growling. On top of that you affirm the connection that something bad was going to happen. The dog was growling because it expected/feared/aversive outcome and you reinforce and solidify that belief by smacking it.

It's terrible that even though we know this concept of alpha no longer applies to wolves, people are implementing this approach even more rigidly than ever before. As the late John Fisher (author of Think Dog, The Natural Way To Train You Dog) wrote: “…if it’s how you want to live with your dog I have news that is going to disappoint a lot of people who have striven to reach Alpha status – it all means diddly squat to your dog.” -- John Fisher

And he is right. People taking this approach do it for themselves because even after they have been given up to date factual evidence to the contrary man persist in their claims.

If you don`t mind me saying so, that is the biggest pile of BS masquerading as canine behavioural science I`ve ever seen. I don`t have a wolf. I have a dog. My dog isn`t in the Forces so it doesn`t have a rank.
Studies show pack hierarchy in dogs is flexible and not dependent on breeding pairs.
Please tell me what qualifications these people have?

eta...who started this anyway? It`s that Pidge isn`t it...mutter mutter...

Quote Gnasher
As you all know, Shaun Ellis has started to come on to the Cry Wolf website to answer our questions.
Questions on what, dogs or wolves ? Hasn't he just put his dogs up for sale because he acquired them before finding out if his new venture was feasible and the premises he intended to use to house them were suitable, mmm hardly someone I would go to for advice on dogs.

I have just read something very interesting on there that Shaun says about alpha dogs/wolves. Firstly, he says that true alphas are extremely rare in both dogs and wolves,

There are no alphas in dogs , how many dogs has your friend SE observed for long periods in large numbers. I spent years working 7 days a week in large kennels, in one we had paddocks where 25 dogs would all go at once . There would be the occasional scuffles between different dogs but there were no alphas or betas, all dogs were equal. The humans weren't alphas either, they were the ones with the larger brains and power of reason who dished out the food and training.

betas are by far and away the most common. Fine so far, I knew this already from his lecture, books etc. He then went on to say something very interesting about CM. A Cry-Wolfer had posted the video clip of CM with Shadow, the wolf cross, where CM gives Shadow an unnecessarily hard nudge with his foot - in this instance, I would describe it as a kick - and had asked Shaun if he thought CM was using too much force.

I agree the dog was kicked in the behind with a back kick, unnecessary ..

Shaun said that the manner in which CM had behaved towards Shadow was that of a high ranking Beta - a Beta Enforcer. In other words, he used too much force.
More mumbo jumbo and nothing to do with 'betas', bully is the more appropriate word here, using strength and a tight collar to cut off a dogs air supply to make it submit.
Shaun is saying that, as alpha, we humans should not act as the Beta Enforcer but just as the alpha wolf would act in the wolf pack. Alphas do not dish out discipline, the Beta Enforcers do (except in very extreme circumstances).

So we should act as alphas who do not dish out discipline , if we are the alphas where are the beta enforcers , are these the dogs who should dish out the discipline , tell me what kind of discipline do dogs dish out to each other then? .

A good alpha does not use force. Absolutely, I have never used force on either Hal or Tai.

A good trainer and owner doesn't use force, nothing to do with being Alpha...

This explains Hal's reaction when OH smacked Hal for growling at him. It was the worst possible thing that he could have done, because he was not acting as Alpha Male, but as Beta Enforcer. This is not the rank that you want to present when handling your dog, you want to present as Alpha ... calm, assertive Alpha, not aggressive pain inflicting Beta Enforcer ! This is why training with force does not work, as if we needed to be told.
It was the worse thing he could have done because he is the human with a brain who should know better than to smack a dog for giving a warning, nothing to do with being Alpha.

This has led me on to think about Hal being an alpha. And how for the first 9 years of his life, we really left him to his own devices. We taught him the basic obedience ... sit, lie down, stay ... but his recall was total crap and usually non-existent ! However, in the last year of his life when I started to use CM's techniques on him, there is no shadow of a doubt, they did work, although his recall was never perfect, more of a meander back towards you, but it was a recall nonetheless, it wasn't a total ignore as used to happen ! And I managed to stop him chasing and killing next door's chickens when they escaped out onto the set aside.
So were we right to leave him pretty much to his own devices up to 9 ? In the absence of not understanding what else to do, I think the answer is yes. However, a modified approach to the CM model definitely worked, and worked wonders. As with Shadow, had CM whacked him like that with his foot, Hal would at the very least have growled and turned his mouth on him, he wouldn't have actually bitten. So I am left still utterly convinced that we should all be Alpha to our dogs, never Beta Enforcer, and depending on the rank of your dog, use full on CM techniques, or modified, using your own judgement as to your dog's rank.

And even more than before, I think I now believe that although we must be alpha to our dogs, we do have to bear in mind THEIR rank amongst their own kind ... the rank they were born with. This is what CM is not doing, he is not making allowance for the natural rank of the dog.

I am amazed that after years of domestication people still think of dogs as wolves, I am convinced it is wishful thinking on behalf of some.

I'm confused Promethean. Shaun Ellis says that alphas are very very rare, in both dogs and wolves, so not sure of the point you are making.

Dogs never "just bite" ... there is always a reason for it, and it is usually because the human cannot or will not properly read the signs the dog is trying to give out.

I so totally disagree with you virtually on everything you say about dogs and wolves that I am not sure how we can have a sensible dialogue ! And that's not me getting arsey because you don't agree with me, it's because it will become so boring for everyone else ! I have my views to which I am entitled, you have your's to which you are entitled. I am very much enjoying our debate, but not sure whether anyone else is !!

that's your opinion Claire and Daisy. I happen to believe that when a species shares the same DNA, they are actually in fact the same species. As far as I am concerned, my dog, your dog, everyone's dog is a direct descendent of the wolf, just as we are the direct descendents of hunter gatherers or cave men.