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Krusewalker
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16-04-2009, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Mum To Many View Post
Its a one off, he has never done it before, so we won't be keeping him on the lead, which is why I'm asking for ideas, sensible ones, we don't let our dog/s harrass joggers it was a ONE OFF , please don't put ypur concerns about dogs chasing you on to one incident with my dog, if he was doing it all the time it would be different of course but he has only done it once , hes a rescue dog as is Betty and he has been with us for 16 months, hes 2 years old, so it has never been a problem before and we want to nip it in the bud, but it would be a total overreaction to never let him off the lead.
Actually, BigV does have a point.
The world is full of owners that make well meaning (and what they believe to be genuine) statements such as "he has never done it before", "it was out of the blue", "its out of character", "its a one off".
But it doesnt alter the risk the dog is posing to others.
And all undesired behaviours start off as one incident.
Under the terms of the Dangerous Dogs Act, your dog could actually get put to sleep if the jogger took it to court - sadly these days, especially Bull breed mixes.

And from the jogger's point of view, as an innocent person going about his own business, it must be quite alarming for a strange dog to be having a go at home.

In both those senses, the one off argument isn't really relevant, and i do feel holding onto that point will only serve to cloud you from not thinking about the gravity of the incident.

But I do respect you for now looking at it seriously enough to be asking for help and advice.

From your information you have given, from your dog's behavioural point of view, it also isnt really a 'one off', as such.
Because you stated he has had an issue with this jogger for a while, so it's a 'progressive problem', not a sudden one off.
It sounds like, in your dog's head, he has been building up to inevitably have a go at this jogger, due to being worried about him for some reason.

You need to examine the whole history from this point of view, asking questions:
1) What is it about this jogger that worries him?
Is it his body language, speed, both?
Has the jogger previously suddenly dashed out in front of him before?
What does she wear? A hooded top?
Is it the jogger's sweaty smell?
Is it at night time?

2) What changes did you notice in your dog the first time you detected he had an issue with this jogger?
What was his body language like?
Did he have ears back? Ears erect?
Tail erect? Tail between legs?
Body stiff? Body sloped?
Eyes fixed/wide/starey?
Ears pricked? Ears down?

Licking of lips? Etc etc

3) What did you do to react to the first times you noticed the issue with the jogger?
Did you ignore it?
Did you make a big fuss and reassure him?
Did you tell him off?
Did you hold a tight tense lead?
Did you let him run closer to the jogger?
Did you put him back on the lead and distract him with treats or toys?

The last one is a good choice. There have been quite a few tips on this thread on how to distract him.
You need to make him feel positive around the jogger, without reassuring (which increases fear in dogs).
This means you need to be alert, but calm and confident.

You also need to combine these tips with putting him on the lead around this jogger, and I would definitely be concerned that this doesnt become a general problem around all joggers, or people in general, as you cannot assume it will just be a one off.
Especially as your partner has told you that he is also barking at our strangers.
Your dog sounds worried and nervous to me, which isnt good.
For that reason, until you understand the problem better, and have sorted out some sort of rehabilitation training, I would take the preventive measure of keeping him on the lead around all joggers (at the least), as half of ALL dog training is to prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

Obviously, you and your husband need to be working together consistently.
Q4) would be what are you doing differently to your husband that means your dog behaves worse with him?

I would recommend you google APDT, CFBA, APBC, or UKRCB. for a good behaviourist or trainers in your area to see him out and out and assess him motivations and train you the best way to respond and solve, involving you and your husband.

Other issues like medical and diet and type of exercise could be relevant.
For example, if he has bad shoulders, did the jogger previously knock them? Or does he have a problem with the jogger after his shoulder hurts? ie, negative association and pain reducing his tolerance and making him more grumpy?
Is he on rocket fuel food such as bakers?
and it sounds like his walks are generally focussed around lots of adrenaline inducing running around activity?
This *'could'* keep his arousal levels high, making fear and aggression more likely.
You could incorporate a lot more calming 'brain work' activity, including on the lead, such ask scent-work, clicker training, scatter and find treat games, lots of obedience commands.
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Mum To Many
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16-04-2009, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by jesterjenn View Post
Don't know if it would work, but you say you have saw this jogger before... Would it be worth putting mutley on lead, going over to the jogger, and ask if he is willing to let your dog greet him (even if the jogger just stands there and lets the dog sniff), therefore your dog will learn his scent and know that he isn't a threat and hopefully not harras him in the future.
Thanks, it could be an idea, my partner has got Brin and Betty to sit before when the jogger was going past and he has said thanks, so there was no real problem before although Brinley has barked at him from a distance previously, if the jogger would stop for long enough to let Brin say hi to him it might stop him taking off after him again.
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Mum To Many
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16-04-2009, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
Actually, BigV does have a point.
The world is full of owners that make well meaning (and what they believe to be genuine) statements such as "he has never done it before", "it was out of the blue", "its out of character", "its a one off".
But it doesnt alter the risk the dog is posing to others.
And all undesired behaviours start off as one incident.
Under the terms of the Dangerous Dogs Act, your dog could actually get put to sleep if the jogger took it to court.
And from the jogger's point of view, as an innocent person going about his own business, it must be quite alarming for a strange dog to be having a go at home.
In that sense, the one off argument isn't really relevant, and i do feel holding onto that point will only serve to cloud you from not thinking about the gravity of the incident.

But I do respect you for now looking at it seriously enough to be asking for help and advice.
From your information you have given, from your dog's behavioural point of view, it also isnt really a 'one off', as such.
Because you stated he has had an issue with this jogger for a while, so it's a 'progressive problem', not a sudden one off.
It sounds like, in your dog's head, he has been building up to inevitably have a go at this jogger, due to being worried about him for some reason.

You need to examine the whole history from this point of view, asking questions:
1) What is it about this jogger that worries him?
Is it his body language, speed, both?
Has the jogger previously suddenly dashed out in front of him before?
What does she wear? A hooded top?
Is it the jogger's sweaty smell?
Is it at night time?

2) What changes did you notice in your dog the first time you detected he had an issue with this jogger?
What was his body language like?
Did he have ears back? Ears erect?
Tail erect? Tail between legs?
Body stiff? Body sloped?
Eyes fixed/wide/starey?
Ears pricked? Ears down?

Licking of lips? Etc etc

3) What did you do to react to the first times you noticed the issue with the jogger?
Did you ignore it?
Did you make a big fuss and reassure him?
Did you tell him off?
Did you hold a tight tense lead?
Did you let him run closer to the jogger?
Did you put him back on the lead and distract him with treats or toys?

The last one is a good choice. There have been quite a few tips on this thread on how to distract him.
You need to make him feel positive around the jogger, without reassuring (which increases fear in dogs).
This means you need to be alert, but calm and confident.

You also need to combine these tips with putting him on the lead around this jogger, and I would definitely be concerned that this doesnt become a general problem around all joggers, or people in general, as you cannot assume it will just be a one off.
Especially as your partner has told you that he is also barking at our strangers.
Your dog sounds worried and nervous to me, which isnt good.
For that reason, until you understand the problem better, and have sorted out some sort of rehabilitation training, I would take the preventive measure of keeping him on the lead around all joggers (at the least), as half of ALL dog training is to prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

Obviously, you and your husband need to be working together consistently.
Q4) would be what are you doing differently to your husband that means your dog behaves worse with him?

I would recommend you google APDT, CFBA, APBC, or UKRCB. for a good behaviourist or trainers in your area to see him out and out and assess him motivations and train you the best way to respond and solve, involving you and your husband.

Other issues like medical and diet and type of exercise could be relevant.
For example, if he has bad shoulders, did the jogger previously knock them? Or does he have a problem with the jogger after his shoulder hurts? ie, negative association and pain reducing his tolerance and making him more grumpy?
Is he on rocket fuel food such as bakers?
and it sounds like his walks are generally focussed around lots of adrenaline inducing running around activity?
This *'could'* keep his arousal levels high, making fear and aggression more likely.
You could incorporate a lot more calming 'brain work' activity, including on the lead, such ask scent-work, clicker training, scatter and find treat games, lots of obedience commands.
I appreciate your response but Brinley is not on the lead when my partner or I take him and Betty to the park, only on the lead to and from the park, I have not seen this jogger as he runs in the morning when my partner takes the dogs to the park, but from what my partner has said there was no change in Brins body language ,usually when my partner walks the dogs in the morning there are other dog walkers around all the dogs are usually off the leads and running around together, maybe Brin was bored because he only had Betty to play with, although if I don't take the ball if Brin is limping he is usually happy to play with Betty and I have never had a problem with them, we throw the ball for him , because he loves it and is very focussed on it and he has arthitus in his shoulder and our vet says its good for him to run but we have to monitor it and we do, its not exactly an adrenaline rush, just a dog who loves playing with a ball.
I haven't got a husband! but my partner and I are pretty consitent with the dogs and we think that Brinley barked previously when he is out with my partner because he is more protective of her than he is with me, he is totally focussed on me in the park when I am there with him and Betty, and always behaves well, but if me and my partner are together walking them, he always takes his ball to her to throw, and she has all his attention, he is more her dog, and Betty is more attached to me, their choice not ours, we both love them equally, but Brin is very close to my partner.
As for food, no we don't feed them Bakers they have raw meat, and veg or biscuits, such as Burns, Brinley eats mostly raw meat and cooked veg.
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labradork
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16-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Can you not just recall your dog when you see a jogger coming? if not, you should keep him on a lead until you can. I am not a jogger but a cyclist, so I can see it from the joggers perspective. Having a dog run at you barking and acting threatening is intimidating.
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Mum To Many
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16-04-2009, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Can you not just recall your dog when you see a jogger coming? if not, you should keep him on a lead until you can. I am not a jogger but a cyclist, so I can see it from the joggers perspective. Having a dog run at you barking and acting threatening is intimidating.
I am aware that is is not pleasent that is why I posted on here, but he has never done it before, and as I said in a previous reply I am not going to overreact by keeping him on a lead all the time, talk about overkill, I and my partner will work with him to stop him doing it again, and yes his recall is usually excellent, I will also take on board some of the other helpful suggestions and we will try them out, but we are not taking our dogs to the park and keeping them on leads at all times.
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labradork
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16-04-2009, 02:02 PM
but we are not taking our dogs to the park and keeping them on leads at all times.
No one said at all times; just when you see a jogger. Your dog may have never done that before but he has now, which means there is potential for him to do it again. If he has the excellent recall that you say he has, him chasing and barking at joggers won't be an issue again.
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BigV
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16-04-2009, 02:04 PM
Originally Posted by Mum To Many View Post
Its a one off, he has never done it before, so we won't be keeping him on the lead, which is why I'm asking for ideas, sensible ones, we don't let our dog/s harrass joggers it was a ONE OFF , please don't put ypur concerns about dogs chasing you on to one incident with my dog, if he was doing it all the time it would be different of course but he has only done it once , hes a rescue dog as is Betty and he has been with us for 16 months, hes 2 years old, so it has never been a problem before and we want to nip it in the bud, but it would be a total overreaction to never let him off the lead.
It is always a 'one off' though; it doesn't make it any less stressful or scary for the person your dog is bothering. Now because I am a dog person I tend not to panic in this type of situation....... but many people are scared or wary of dogs to start off with and so may react in a way which encourages your dog to get over excited and do something more serious.


Secondly I said if your dog can't be trusted then you should keep him on the lead, and you did say in your original post that his recall is
usually very good
, so that doesn't sound 100% to me.

However If you feel you can trust him then by all means let him have a run and sniff about, but you can no longer use the 'one off' excuse.

Did you offer an apology to the jogger?
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Krusewalker
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16-04-2009, 02:09 PM
Thanks for your reply.
If brin is protective of your partner, that would be consident with other details you have listed.
Such as his growing concern over this jogger, barking at strangers.
Sounds like Brin is showing signs of worry or nerves, and there must be a difference in how your partner responds to this.
There is a difference between you and your partner, as Brin is totally focussed on you and your training of him, such as recall, whereas with your partner he is not.
(Going by your posts)
So your partner needs help to learn to train him; in that way will lay consistency and safety.
I wasnt referring to an adrenline rush, i am referring to a state of accumulated over-arousal, which some dogs can get thru the hormonal effect lots of busy activity can cause- humans have this too.
However, if you have a dog showing propensity to nervousness or aggression or any other behaviour issue, this hormonal state can making them quicker to react in a negative way.
Especially if you combine pain.

You do need an experienced person that can determine your dogs body language.
And an experienced person that can help you sort out his reactions to strangers, and the reasons for them?
And an experienced person that can help you and your partner train him in these situations.
His behaviour is determined by the average person and in the eyes of the law as aggression, and he could theoretically end up with a destruction order if it was pushed hard enough - his breed type doesn't help him here either.
Its worth taking precautions like putting him on the lead around lots of strangers and joggers, and getting help, if only to protect your dog and prevent any upset for everyone, including yourselves.
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Krusewalker
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16-04-2009, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Mum To Many View Post
I am aware that is is not pleasent that is why I posted on here, but he has never done it before, .
As the others have said, this statement isnt relevant.
It doesnt matter he hasnt done it before, he's done it now, so has the potential to do it again.

However, if you dont accept this (which is a risky strategy for your dog under the law), then accept that this one off statement isnt relevant from a canine behaviour point of view, as Brin has been building up to this problem.
So its not the 'all of sudden one off action' you are stating.
You have given statements yourself backing up this fact.
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Mum To Many
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16-04-2009, 02:19 PM
Originally Posted by BigV View Post
It is always a 'one off' though; it doesn't make it any less stressful or scary for the person your dog is bothering. Now because I am a dog person I tend not to panic in this type of situation....... but many people are scared or wary of dogs to start off with and so may react in a way which encourages your dog to get over excited and do something more serious.


Secondly I said if your dog can't be trusted then you should keep him on the lead, and you did say in your original post that his recall is , so that doesn't sound 100% to me.

However If you feel you can trust him then by all means let him have a run and sniff about, but you can no longer use the 'one off' excuse.

Did you offer an apology to the jogger?
I was being modest Brinleys recall has always been 100% with me, and his recall is also excellent with my partner, THIS WAS A ONE OFF, so sorry for shouting but you don't seem to be understanding, not that shouting will help.Its not an excuse, he has not done this before....
I did not offer an apology to the jogger because I wasn't there, but my partner did, we do have manners you know!
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