Just reading the whole thread but I wanted to comment on adams video - sorry if someone has already said this

Lovely happy little dog v focused on his ball
Looks less happy when he returns and most of his attention is still on the ball

and that is the problem with punishment training, it supresses the behaviour - he doesnt continue on to get the ball, but it does nothing for the desire - he still REALLY wants to go get the ball please
Its just the fear of the punishment is greater than the love of chasing the ball

As a pose to when you train the recal using positive methods the dog learns to asociate the returning to you with great things.
It becomes MORE fun to come back to you - so the ball is forgotton

That says it all!

Adam there is a HUGE difference between sticking close to a person because they've been rewarded for doing so (attention, praise, treats, toys, what have you) and sticking close to a person because they're afraid to move away.

How is it possible you are SO BLIND you cannot see this?

Also, if you wouldn't subject your friends to "us guys" then why are you still here? You're not winning people over to your ecollars, you're not making sales, if anything you're just making yourself look worse and worse. So why bother?

Yes...yes that does. *sigh* The idea that one slaps a shock collar on a dog and the dog (a fearful dog!) instantly trusts him is so backward I don't even know what to say. I mean, how can someone even come UP with that. It doesn't make any sort of logical sense.

Been wondering that myself for a long time! Must be some kind of masochist, or hell-bent on his own one-man crusade. He could get a heck of a lot more customers by going on other websites, but instead he spends....erm....how much time? = loads???....on here fighting his ever-diminishing corner.

And yet, also, he doesn't have a website of his own to promote his business. It isn't rocket surgery these days to make a website... FFS I made my first website about 15 years ago and it's just got easier and easier since. It makes you wonder, doesn't it?

The man's a wind-up merchant and who knows, we might find later on he didn't exist for real in the first place; but at least all our energy online about the dangers of e-collars will stay forever and be archived.

Adam may disappear.... but our views and arguments will be kept for the record

You're right, not everyone is equating all electric shocks with pain, but it comes up so often "electric shock= pain" that it sometimes seems that there's an unwillingness to even consider that the sensation resulting from a shock can be anything other than painful.

I chose the pacemaker as an extreme example.


They probably do have a differing thresholds, in which case is it not possible that communication might be made with a dog through the means of an e-collar that is not neccessarily painful ? (maybe a vibrating collar would be the better option, but is it not at least possible?)


I agree, mostly. But, there may be some occasions, under certain circumstances, with some dogs, where the reward that "we" are able to offer, may not be sufficient motivation (i'm thinking chase). Management may be the best solution in this case.


Now we're back to to the e-collar being painful. I'm inclined to believe that an e-collar could be used in a way that isn't necessarily painful to a dog - whether or not that would be enough to control a dog I think probably depends on the individual dog.

post 153 continued..

Michael there are photographs in another thread showing a dog with an e collar around its middle. When I enquired why this was done 'someone' indicated it was to teach the dog to sit.
Now it may be the case that a very low level of shock is all that is required to get the dog to sit because it is in a relaxed state with little external stimulation, but why would anyone want to use an e collar to teach a dog a simple thing like to sit. Sledgehammers and nuts come to mind.

So lets look at training something more difficult , a recall .
My current dog has a very high prey drive and loves to chase anything which moves. Even so she has a pretty good recall but I wouldn't trust her 100% so I use a little common sense and 'manage' her traits.

She is let off lead in the fields every day and I allow her to chase the crows and rabbits never calling her when I think there is a chance she won't obey. I never let her off where there is stock. The result is a happy little dog who does no harm to anyone but is allowed to use a behaviour for which her breed was originally bred.

I could of course put an e collar on her but I know that like any athlete under the influence of adrenaline fuelled excitement I would need to give her a pretty hefty shock to have any effect on her at all. So at the least the shock isn't strong enough so pointless and at the worst I cause my dog pain. Do I really want to cause my little dog pain in order to force her to comply with my wishes.

What I have now is a happy little dog and I see the full measure of her personality which has never in any way been suppressed with force or fear.

This is just one of many of the reasons I would never use an e collar, I am sure those who advocate their use are aware of all other reasons which have been voiced not just on this forum but many others and resulted in the Welsh Assembly having the good sense to ban them.

I've seen this argument before and it doesn't make sense. The way you get the dog to feel comfortable near the owner is to make him uncomfortable away from the owner. Dogs do tend to like to be near their owners unless, of course, they are distracted by something interesting. If a dog is distracted by something interesting, a 'tingle' will be ignored so you have to turn up the dial until the level of discomfort is such that the dog feels the 'need' to turn it off. For dogs of a nervous disposition, any feeling of discomfort will see them seeking solace and safety simply because they scare easily, for more stoic dogs the level of discomfort needs to be of varying degrees of intensity until the dog finds it at best highly uncomfortable, at worst painful.

Taking this further, your training is confusing. You say that you usually make this a starting point in training. Then, of course, you have to undo that training to a certain extent to make the dog feel secure away from the owner when working on other exercises that require distance. Not only does this type of training consist of the dog feeling uncomfortable at best throughout the entire learning process (which can be such a happy experience for ALL concerned using other methods) and at worst consisting of varying degrees of pain, but it is also highly confusing for the dog

Getting lost in pages of the same old stuff

Adam, I would like to discuss this scientifically with you, taking away the emotion of 'shocks are bad' which is of course what i belieive

You say the dog is rewarding to the collar as Negative Reinforcment

- negative - taking away - reinforcment - something that makes the behaviour more likely to happen

The taking away the 'stim' is a sufficiently large reward that the dog enjoys the returning to you?



You have to 1st apply the 'stim' and the application of this stim IS positive punishment
What are you punishing at this point? I assume you apply the stim BEFORE the cue to return is given? So the dog can turn off the stim by obaying the cue?
Therefore the punishment is applied (from the dogs pont of view) randomly, it is not doing any behaviour that you are trying to stop, therefore that would be very confusing to the dog
Therefore as you are not supressing a behaviour with the punishment then it is not (scientifically speaking) punishment (as punishment is something that reduces a behaviour) therefore the 'stim' in the first place can only be classed as abuse

The degree of the 'reward' the dog would feel would be related to the degree of the 'discomfort' felt by the 'stim'
the bigger the discomfort the bigger the relief the bigger (and more motivating) the reward
If it didnt hurt it wouldnt work

Yes Michael, 'electric shock' does ' = pain' to a greater or lesser degree if administered externally by a device like an electric shock collar.In my opinion the pacemaker has been cited inappropriately here because it is used internally on an organ which doesn't have the same level of feeling as skin/nerve endings which respond to the lightest touch..