NO it wasnt, it was about health related issues in pedigree dogs. There are far far far more pedigree dogs out there than them that enter dog shows..


Ohh dear.. There are members on this forum who breed pedigree dogs with the aim to produce show dogs, who also see their dogs as pets, spend out money on health testing dogs for known breed related health issues and a whole load of other things. of course breeding for looks is part of producing show dogs, the puppies need to conform to breed standard. Looks are just one factor for an ethical breeder believe it or not health and tempermant are just as important.

You shouldnt believe all you read or see on TV. Showing is not to blame for everything thats wrong in the world of dogs far from it.

I fear you may have misinterpreted some of the information you have been given, the Peke in question did not run around the ring...that would certainly be a sight

Why is it obvious that Crufts and the breeders don't care about the welfare of the dogs?

I'm afraid that you have fallen into the trap of believing 100% of everything that you read/see on TV.

I suggest that you keep an open mind and read lots more from lots of different sources and speak to people with real experience. Unfortunately in this thread some of the show goers may come over less friendly than usual, but they're a bit fed up of having to repeat themselves and go over the same inaccurate stories spread around.

I agree Moobli has some stunning dogs
But a border collie is what it is BECAUSE of the way it works sheep

Yes I agree and that is something I have problems with. They have only become so popular very recently and already the dogs are changing dramaticaly. In general they all have vast amounts of coat, pretty much identical markings, all with tipped ears (some people even glue the ears to make them so) overly domed heads to make them look more puppy like and fairly heavy boned (even tho the last time I saw a breed standard it said lighter boned was to be prefered over heavy - but that was a while ago and I guess that might have changed)
If these changes have happend so much in just a decade or so then that is very worrying

Yes I totaly love the variation, but the fact that every one of them looks like a collie. I would hate to loose that in favour of a flock of clones
and the fact that there will soon be a split breed just shows the huge changes breeding for looks can cause (I did see a study a couple of years back from america that actualy the dna of the show dogs over there was actually far enough appart as to make them already a different breed)

yup not all farmers are amazing breeders, not all farm collies are the best dogs in the world
It is more than likely that the collie has greyhound in it somewhere, and some dogs are more leggy than others. Also I know many farmers who work cattle prefer the more leggy dogs - it depends on the ground and the types of animals
It is more than possible some farmers do keep their dogs too skinny, not all farmers treat their dogs well
But I also know quite a lot of collie owners who find their dogs are very lean when they are young (some fluffy show dog type ones - but you cant see it only feel it)

Yup I believe dogs can be registered on merit as a border collie even if it dosent have papers if it works the sheep in a correct collie way
I heard of a dog who looked like a beardy but worked the sheep in a border collie style so was registered as a border collie

I know others will disagree but I see totaly no problems with that

The border collie isnt a breed that was made by a few rich people with kennels wanting a dog that looked such a way to do such a job

It was bred from the most useful farm dogs to be a good working sheepdog - it is a total mixture and I for one am passionate that it stays that way

with regard to BCs, Isnt it actually the working folks that would be at the centre of the 'looks' changing, after all people breeding to produce show puppies will be breeding with the aim to have puppies as closely matched to the standard as possible - Them that are breeding to run on puppies out in the feild, wont care what their puppies look like to a certain extent - and will be more inclinded to mate dogs that are good workers, with them tempermants their after. That I can totally understand as looks means nothing to them in the way the look of the dog doesnt alter its performance.

I am not around the BC showing scence to be fair, so cant say I know or have seen the changes that have occured. But to me breeding for a thicker coat isnt much of a problem is it? I have seen some BC in the ring with flashy thick coats, and others with less of a coat. I must admit I do like the look of the BC with heavier coats. Personal preference though.

Their is a massive variation in CCs...Different amounts of funishings, different colours and markings. The hairless and the puffs, the deer and the cobby..ect. I like variation to some extent...But for me my idea of a perfect CC will stay the same...Regardless of whats winning in the ring.

As I said before it is nothing to do with Crufts which is just a name for one of the many many dog shows held in the UK every year.

Have you ever been? Or been to any other kind of dog show? I think you might be surprised. Crufts also has agility, flyball etc... open to ANY kind of dog whatever its shape or size, just like all the other shows all year have the same opportunities.

Are you confusing the name Crufts with the Kennel Club?
Crufts just the name of one big show once a year. It's not an entity in itself, it doesn't choose champions - all the other dog shows the rest of the year play that part. Many people with qualified dogs choose not to go there - not because of anything nasty, just because they can make their dog up to a champion at other shows and don't really NEED to go to Crufts!

I used to show cats and back then, it was the National Cat Show at Olympia which was the "Big One". I had a lovely cat I used to show - it helped that I lived in inner London so it was almost my annual Local Show! My cat won best of breed three years running there, but it didn't bring us fame & glory at all, to us it was just another show, in fact he qualified for his Premier [Champion Neuter] at other shows in the year.

People came to the National as it was then the biggest cat show in the world, but it was just another show really.... if I had to make a distinction I would say it was a nuisance show.... as it was so big and you had to pay more, you even had to pay entrance fee even if you had a cat entered, and queue.... and there were more people coming in who got in the way, and millions of trade stands and it was such a big deal and "thank goodness it's only once a year".

One year when my cat won BOB we were given piles of cat food from sponsors, loads of stuff ... now I had gone to the show by bus!!!!... I was actually rather annoyed, because to get all this stuff home I had to get a black-taxi and it cost an extra £20!!!

Now do you see why some people dislike the Very Big Shows, and how little the Very Big Shows represent how it is the rest of the year? Very very easy to get the wriog idea about stuff by going along to one of these Showcase type shows!

Border Collies have always had a lot of variation. Show breeding means more standardising, so no, the show people are changing the look to suit the idea of a 'perfect' BC.
I like the variety, but I guess its not for everyone.

so has the standard recently changed then? If not then the show folk are still aiming to produce dogs to the same standard - and people on here mentioned changing of the head..

(I am actually interested).

Some shepherds do have colour preferences. Many will favour the traditional colouring because they believe they are the best workers. More white tends to settle sheep, more black the opposite. It doesn't mean that non-traditional colours can't work, just that a lot of the shepherds like to stick with what they know works.