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Mother*ship
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08-07-2008, 01:49 PM

How do I tell if my puppy is eating enough?

When I was a first time Mum I worried that my son was feeding enough (when we got Pepper she ate like a gannet from the word go) but now I am worrying again about Gozo, an 11 week old Affenpinscher.

He is still on 4 meals a day, AMP raw food with a bit of mixer and tiny bits of veg as recommended by his breeder. He gets very excited at meal times, rushes into his puppy pen, eats about 2 mouthfuls and wanders off, he may come back for some more but rarely eats more than half. After 20 mins or so I pick the food up.

He's weeing and pooing fine and full of energy (and trouble ) but he is so small I just worry he should be eating more.

Am I just being a worrywart? Is there anything you can do to increase a puppy's appetite? Should I be trying to tempt him with other food, or would that just be making trouble for myself? How can I tell if he's eating enough?

J
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Evie
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08-07-2008, 03:05 PM
As a general guideline raw fed pups should be eating about 10% of their bodyweight in raw food daily; or 2-3% of their ideal adult weight.

Personally I wouldn't start fussing and trying to encourage him to eat more, you could be making a rod for your own back further down the line.

I'm sure others here will be able to advise you more.
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Pita
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08-07-2008, 04:24 PM
Can't help with amounts as I don't understand feeding raw but would say the pup should gain at least some weight every week, why not contact the breeder and ask what weight your pup should be by 3 months. Then you can weigh next week and see if she is about right or not.
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AussieGeek
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08-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Ive always crated my puppies to eat. IMO they get to caught up in what is going on around them and dont eat. If you crate him and let him out after about 20 minutes and he eats whatever than thats probably all his belly will hold. (Im not saying he should or has to eat for the whole time, but it gives him the chance to focus on that verse everything else.)
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Mother*ship
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08-07-2008, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Evie View Post
As a general guideline raw fed pups should be eating about 10% of their bodyweight in raw food daily; or 2-3% of their ideal adult weight.
That's useful to know, as he weighs 1.3 kg that means he needs to eat 130g, I'm sure he's not eating that much but I shall start weighing it out to check.

Originally Posted by Pita View Post
Can't help with amounts as I don't understand feeding raw but would say the pup should gain at least some weight every week, why not contact the breeder and ask what weight your pup should be by 3 months. Then you can weigh next week and see if she is about right or not.
Excellent idea, I shall definitely ask her.

Originally Posted by AussieGeek View Post
Ive always crated my puppies to eat. IMO they get to caught up in what is going on around them and dont eat. If you crate him and let him out after about 20 minutes and he eats whatever than thats probably all his belly will hold. (Im not saying he should or has to eat for the whole time, but it gives him the chance to focus on that verse everything else.)
This was my thinking too but when I try that he completely ignores the food! I've sometimes left my other dog with a chew or stuffed kong when I'm going out but she always completely ignores them until I get back. I wonder if it's a similar thing?

Thanks for your help and suggestions.

J
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Ziva
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08-07-2008, 08:18 PM
All good advice above .... I shall have a think for other ideas.

Firstly tho, what's AMP raw food?
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Mother*ship
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09-07-2008, 07:15 AM
Originally Posted by Ziva View Post
Firstly tho, what's AMP raw food?
Hi Ziva,
AMP is minced raw meat, here's a link but you can get it in PAH...
http://www.prizechoice.co.uk/

J
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Ziva
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09-07-2008, 08:41 AM
Ah, I see. I had a quick look and couldn't see any mention of calcium in there. Is it intended as a complete food or is it intended to be fed alongside raw meaty bones?

IMO I think it's time to get him onto Raw Meaty Bones, give him something to work at for his food. All my pups have loved chewing on bones, in the beginning they don't eat much of the bone and I used to throw most of it away, although it kept them occupied for a good hour or two, just tearing the meat off, and it got them real interested in their food as puppies just love to chew (anything!).

In the beginning, if you're nervous about him having bones, you can always hang onto the other end of it. Any meat/bone feeding sessions should ALWAYS be supervised - even now 2 years on, I make sure I stay in the same room as my crew when they are eating RMB's, just in case there is a problem, although there never has been. Rule of thumb is never feed a bone that they can get in their mouth whole - so for a large pup - no chicken wings or necks etc. Personally I hate chicken wings anyway - not enough meat on them and because they have 2 bends in them I view them as dangerous (if they were swallowed whole they have a bigger potential of getting stuck).

I posted this on a different thread, although without the young puppy bit on the end, so for ease I'll post it here as well.

This is a posting on the rawfeeding group by a very experienced lady called Michelle Morgan who is a rawfeeding large breed breeder. She has aimed it at puppies, although vitually all of it also applies to adult dogs.

This is by far the best piece of writing on raw that I have ever seen, so should be able to answer any worries you might have about feeding bones.

This is a public service message that summarizes the nutritional basics of raw feeding for new raw feeders with puppies. The information is gathered from the rawfeeding lists, as well as several nutritional resources on the internet which you can also find by googling. I hope new members find it useful. It also applies to adult dogs - anything that is specific to puppies and not to adult dogs is cited as such (re calcium absorption and vitamin E).

Puppies need meaty meaty meaty bones: Puppies need more protein than adult dogs as they grow at an incredible rate. Protein contains essential amino acids, the building blocks of your future dog. Muscle meat is a great source of protein, but it contains a lot of phosphorus and is low in calcium.

That is why puppies need bones (and other connective tissue like cartilage). These provide biologically balanced minerals, especially calcium, but also copper, iodine, iron, magnesium, zinc, and manganese. The best and safest way to provide balanced calcium and phosphorus is by feeding raw meaty bones that have between 10 and 15% edible bone in them. Puppy does not have to eat all the bone, if sufficient edible bone is offered, in general puppies will get enough calcium for normal skeletal development. Supplemental calcium should not be fed to growing pups. Puppies do not have a mechanism for controlling over-absorption of calcium, which leads to a calcium/phosphorus imbalance and abnormal skeletal growth.

Puppies need fat in their diets – high quality animal fat, which means the raw fat that comes attached to the meat. Some trimming of incredibly fatty meats is ok, but don't trim drastically.

Puppies need to eat organs. About 8% of the total diet should be a mix of organs which provide an enzyme-rich mixture of protein, B-complex vitamins, vitamins A and D, some vitamin C, and essential fatty acids EPA, DHA, and AA, along minerals such as manganese, selenium, zinc, potassium and copper. Liver has a high iron, Vitamin A and B12, and folate content, as well as niacin and pantothenic acid. Like muscle meat, organs contain a lot of phosphorus (and potassium) and are low in calcium. Heart counts as a muscle meat more than it does as an organ. So do chicken gizzards.

Green tripe is a great food for puppies. It is the stomach from grass eating animals which contains beneficial bacteria, essential fatty acids and other nutrients, and it has a very good calcium/phosphorus ratio.

Puppies need approximately double the amount of vitamin E as adult dogs. It is found in organs, (liver, heart, kidneys, brains) and in red meats in moderate amounts, and in eggs and fish in plentiful amounts. The essential fatty acid DHA (Omega 3) is also plentiful in fish and in organs like brains, kidneys, and liver.

In summary, if you feed a variety of raw meaty (and I mean meaty) bones, with an overall average of 10 to 15% edible bone, and you feed some organs that add up to about 8% of the diet, you've got all the bases covered.

If bone percentage strays much higher than these values, you may be feeding too much bone at the expense of much needed protein and throwing off the calcium/phosphorus ratio – which can interfere with proper bone formation. If you fed primarily chicken necks, wings, and frames, for example, your bone percentage would be in the neighborhood of 50-60% or higher. That's not good.

If organs are not fed, the diet may be lacking in vitamins and fatty acids, iron, and other necessary stuff. You could make up some of this in eggs and other food items, but organs are ideal. Dogs that don't like liver can usually be converted by partially freezing it, or offering it lightly seared the first few times.

Organs are rich, and generally should be fed in small portions along with the regular meal. Feeding a "liver only" or "organs only" meal is pretty much a guaranteed way of giving your dog the runs. Organs need not be fed every day – you just want to get an average of 8% over the long run.

Do not be tempted to feed more than 8% of organs, especially if you are using mainly liver. This is too much of a good thing, and your pup will be overloaded with non water soluble vitamins which he or she cannot eliminate. Too much vitamin A will interfere with vitamin D activity which is essential for calcium absorption, and cause brittle bones prone to fracture.

If you feel like you need to supplement for Omega 3 (grain fed meat animals are low in Omega 3 compared to grass fed animals) do so with fish body oil (e.g. salmon). While some form of Omega-3 can be found in flaxseed, walnuts and a few other foods, the most beneficial form of Omega-3 - containing 2 fatty acids, EPA and DHA - can be found only in fish.

Do not supplement with Cod Liver Oil. Cod Liver Oil is like liver… it contains vitamins A and D and using it as a supplement in addition to raw feeding could be overdoing it on both counts.

Do not supplement with other vitamins. The best source of nutrients is from whole foods, and a balanced and varied diet. Supplements are only needed if a dog cannot receive all of the nutrients it needs because it either can't or doesn't eat enough, or can't or doesn't eat a variety of species appropriate foods. Supplementing vitamins and minerals is never a good substitute for healthy feeding. First of all, vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that imbalanced will interfere with the correct functioning or absorption of other vitamins and nutrients. Secondly, randomly supplementing because something sounds like a good idea can lead to providing excessive levels or one or more nutrients if you do not know what puppy is already getting in their food. Calcium is one of the most commonly over supplemented items.

WEANING ON TO RAW AT 4 weeks:
Don't worry about the puppies getting enough bone at this stage. They are barely weaned, and they will not suffer for lack of calcium for the week or so it will take for them start eating bones on their own. Don't be tempted to 'smash' chicken bones for them as this can sometimes lead to very young puppies "overdoing" it and eating too much bone. If I smash at all, I only smash a little portion (like half of the hip bone on a chicken thigh) and leave the rest whole. This way, a puppy is not going to eat more bone than it can handle.

Stomach PH in puppies is not as acidic as in adults... it takes time for them to work up to digesting bone, so what they ingest initially is usually very small amounts. If you've ever seen a bitch regurgitating for her puppies, what comes up is a mix of semi digested meat and bones, and the puppies will usually eat all the meat from this and leave most of the bone bits on the floor. So, you need not expect them to eat as much bone as an adult.

Usually, bitches stop nursing full time around 4 weeks but will still let the puppies have an occasional suckle. If mommy has defintely stopped nursing, and they are not able to eat much whole raw on their own, go for easier items. Canned sardines are great for babies, they can eat all the bones. You can also do ground or chopped green tripe for many meals, this has a good calcium/phosphorus ratio. If you feed them whole eggs, with shells, many puppies will treat the shells like potato chips and have a great time gnawing them

Do not give bone meal powder, you can easily do too much of this, and bone meal power is always made from cooked, rendered bones that are far more likely to cause an impaction.

3-4 times a day is right for this age... they start to ignore one of the meals when they are about 6 weeks old... then you can go to 3 a day until 8 to 12 weeks. I raise giant breed puppies.... in two weeks you would not believe what they are eating by themselves

There is often a fear with new raw feeders that a puppy will become blocked from the bone content in the diet (which is in fact far more rare than you would think). Here is an excerpt from an article on blockage. All dog owners should be aware of the symptoms:

"A partial blockage in the intestines will produce intermittent symptoms, of vomiting, diarrhea, and cramping. A complete blockage will produce severe and sudden abdominal pain, violent, possibly projectile vomiting. The vomited material may consist of fecal-like matter, if the blockage is located in the lower GI tract, along with distention of the abdomen."
Michelle Morgan
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Mother*ship
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09-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Thanks Ziva, that is a very informative article. But I confess it does make me worry a bit, it all sounds so complicated and increases my worry that I'll get something wrong. Also she is referring to giant breed puppies and Gozo is right at the other end of the scale!

What type of bones would you suggest for a toy breed puppy? I have given him a chicken leg, I cut some of meat off and fed it separately and then gave him the main bone to chew on, which he loved. Do you think chicken wings would be ok in his case because he is so small?

J
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Evie
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09-07-2008, 08:59 AM
Originally Posted by Ziva View Post
This is a posting on the rawfeeding group by a very experienced lady called Michelle Morgan who is a rawfeeding large breed breeder. She has aimed it at puppies, although vitually all of it also applies to adult dogs.
Hiya,

It's a great piece of writing. Is the rawfeeding group you mention the Yahoo Rawfeeding group? I found it invaluable when learning about feeding dogs raw at the start and still very useful today.
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