Good thread

Personally I think alot depends on the breed and temperament of the dog ...if you've got a happy waggy eager to please dog then its going to be alot easier to be positive than if you've got a pig headed stubborn couldn't give a stuff dobe/dog
Some breeds and individual dogs are a lot more in your face and generally alot harder work and will continue to be norty till the end of their days ( and secretly thats the bit we love )

A few years ago I had a sheep-obsessed GSD. She came to me at 16 months old and was a bit of a tearaway. I tried all sorts of methods to stop her chasing sheep, with the help of a behaviourist and also two police dog instructors. Nothing worked. I drew the line at using an e-collar but do sometimes wonder if she would be alive today if I had. We tried to improve her behaviour over 3 years and, believe me, nothing worked.

I completely agree with you Ian.

Yes I have read it. I remember it being a really interesting read but haven't read it in a long time, so will have to go back and read it again.

You must remember though that certain working dogs, especially police dogs, have to be trained in a really short space of time (not ideal at all, but there it is), in something like 12 weeks.

I am not sure if Johan is reading this thread, but would be interested in his views on training really hard-wired working Mals by positive only methods. I am just not convinced it would work with dogs like that (but try to keep an open mind).

As has been previously said, if you have a happy, biddable kind of a dog then positive only stuff is wonderful, but if you have a dog that is stubborn, strong-willed and independent I think it would be a lot harder, and take a lot longer.

I am finding it really interesting though and like to think that most of my training is done positively. I very rarely have to raise my voice at all to my dogs and they never get smacked or jerked around.

A scenario I have just thought of. My collie gets totally obsessed by his sheep at herding class. When we are waiting for our turn he will strain at his lead, almost choking himself, to try to get in the field. He won't listen to me trying to coax his attention away with a little titbit or a fuss. Therefore I ask him to lie down which he does. I then put my foot on his lead so when he tries to jump back up and keep straining against me he can't. He may wriggle for a few minutes but then settles to watch, as he knows he can't pull anymore. Is this negative reinforcement?

I train my dogs the way they need training. Nothing more, nothing less.

Scenario, Harvey, my gwp used to go mental at the collies running around here (there are 3 houses, and about 20 collies). He had some bad experiences of them charging him and disliked them with a passion. I walk him across the road, over a bridge and let him off. One day, he nearly pulled me over in the mud. That was enough, I was furious. I pushed him into a sit, and gave him a good shaking - heat of the moment stuff. Let him off lead, and he was as happy as larry, not worried AT all about what had just happened.

Now, when he sees a collie, he mainly just ignores them. He sometimes gets a bit het up so I just need to say to him shush and he calms down. I'm not advocating doing that and I know if I did it to my other gwp, she would go to pieces. Would I do it again to Harvey, yes, if the need arised. He was absolutely taking the p*ss with me and it was going to stop there.

My dogs are happy. They work for a living and enjoy life in general. We have a great relationship and I very rarely use treats. We have a pocket full of biscuits when exercising them and they get one when they have done a good recall.

Would I change my way of training, no. I have done all the clicker training etc and I agree, it works. However, when I have a pup, I like to have an idea of when that pup is going to be worked. We have to plan well ahead. Part of my job, is using the dogs and I get a dog allowance and they paid for my setter. My training methods work, and my dogs are not any more stressed, unhappy than someone who has trained 100% positively.

Helen

I was also thinking about the sheep chasing scenario mentioned earlier. If the owner could not train the dog out of the unwanted behaviour by using positive reinforcement, but negative aversion did work ... then surely it would be better to try that method than keep the dog on the lead for the rest of his/her life? Shouldn't the methods used be changed and modified to suit the individual dog and the circumstances?

I think that depends on the nagtive things used. I don't think it would be fair, for example, to put and ecollar in it... :smt002
I would rather keep the dog away from the situation or keep it on lead.

Really? Even if you could use an e-collar, say, two or three times and the dog never looked at sheep again? So that dog could be walked freely without fear of it chasing? I would much rather that, than keep a dog confined to lead-only exercise for the rest of it's life.

Truly.
I think ecollars create more problems than they help. You could end up with a dog scared of anything in the field but the sheep.
I think, like with anything,negative aversion techniques need to be used carefully and we have to draw the line at some things...ecollars and full check chains being just 2 of them.
I will use my voice to correct a dog, I will also guide them with the lead, not yank, but direct. I have also used a gentle leader in the past and found it to be absolutely invaluable. That's where I draw the line though, I would never HURT a dog in order to get it to behave for me, ever.
I don't want my dogs to be scared, or in pain, I just want to 'correct' them through my voice or using the lead (carefully and gently)...I would rather keep my dog on lead or away from a situation , than hurt it in any way shape or form.