Targetting is a great way to build confidence but I would still get the dog addicted to targetting something it finds comfortable first. With regard to the dog getting treats off strangers being cured it just shows how different things work with different dogs.
If some one put their hand out to my Bayley when I got him it is likely would have lunged and barked.
I put him in conflict and he couldn't handle it.

She sits and 'waves' before she gets the biscuit. I taught her this 5 days ago.

Wys
x

I get what you're saying, however certain things can work but not be fair, or can work but be hard for many to use correctly, or can work but often cause fallout problems...and so on.

The reason people may make remarks about choke chains etc (using these as an example) is because they have been known to cause injuries including severe injuries when used robustly (vet Robin Walker who used to be vet to the Met Police I think it was, can attest to this) ... so what is happening is that people who have learnt about the problems tend to comment, but it's usually a very good reason for their comments, they aren't just throwaway



Wys
x

Hey Promethean, what is your take on why ecollars etc tend to be used in the more extreme dog sports?

Is it due to tradition or something else?

wys
x

I don't like them nor do I use them - I do have one though. I already said that the only time I used them was to help a friend who had zero training experience with dogs and needed a quick fix for his rattler loving dog and I only had one day with him.

You have to remember that these sports come from a Military and Police tradition, from a time when training was not very sophisticated. I saw a video of a KNVP competition from the 30's and none of the dogs would have scored very well, or possibly passed by our modern standards. I think it is tradidtion and the fact that it works. Because we breed these dog for that character, we can get away with harsh, even brutal methods that wouldn' work with the average pet. The dog's own qualities are responsible for people not wanting to change... and tradition. I call it 'social inertia", the momentum of 100 years of this type of training make it hard to convince people there are other choices.

The methods weeded out the dogs that couldn't hack it with the dogs that could. But they also tended to think this was an either/or proposition and that you could not change the dog's attitude. We now know that this is not so and almost every breeder/trainers uses 'drive' and confidence building exercises from the moment the dog is born.

Generally people who use physical punishment tend to focus on what THEY DON'T WANT, while I have always focused on WHAT I WANT the dog to do. The example of "I don't want the dog to lick my dish" turns into "I want the dog to lie down"

Wys, did you hear the canine campus podcast on the work of Esther Schalke re E-collars?

I posted the link a week or so back.

If you think that training methodes don't change...

I recall training sessions i saw as a kid in the early 70ies. They were totally different than todays far more extreme than todays. And we make choices everyday to what the best training method is for that particular dog. and for the E-collar being a quick fix. How come we train 3 years to get a dog to competition

Greetings

Johan

Hi Promethean don't worry I won't.

I would say training to compete in the activities you mention without the use of harsh methods and painful devices is the mark of a good skilled trainer, it doesn't take a skilled trainer to force a dog to comply with heavy handed methods and painful devices.

I forgot to say that for the first long while they just had strangers drop treats and totaly ignore the dog - he choose when he finaly wanted to interact with people - but now he is so happy he is actually doing great at agility and loving all the people watching him

Sarah - sorry I have lots the quote from you - just wanted to say that Mia is in no way fixed - she is improving every month but it is long slow road (prob not helped by my inexperience) - but as her problem is fear, and the fact she can also redirect her anger it just wouldnt be possible (even if I wanted to) to use any corection methods on her at all
Its all about building her confidence and trying to keep her below the point when she reacts (not always possible when you cant control who is walking round the corner)
She is v improved and now her distance she can tolerate strange dogs is reduced from somewhere on the horizon to within a few feet
But I still make mistakes and missread things sometimes - and like you say too it is a bit random - sometimes when you think she is going to go mental she is totaly fine - like at the agility show where we walked past a van of borders who all went mental at her - she looked at them, looked at me, licked her lips for a treat and walked on! then other times you think she will be fine and she isnt