I realise this wasn't addressed to me, but am one of those on here who does behavioural work, and so wanted to reply

I can assure you that a very large majority of the dogs on CM are dogs which an ordinary US behaviourist could cope with and does, day in and day out

CM encourages aggression in the dogs by his body language and behaviour and equipment. A good behaviourist avoids winding a dog up, watches their and the dog's body language and does not get bitten, or hardly ever.

Apart form anything else, that puts a bite history on the poor dog!

Re equipment, they'd use items designed to control, calm, or manage, rather than anything which is designed to choke, wind up or make a dog fearful.
Clicker training can be used to great advantage in the rehabbing of many dogs...including working with aggression Don't fall into the trap of assuming (there is so much assuming on Dogsey at the moment!) that it is for tricks only.

Jolly glad to hear it
I personally try to comment on his methods, than the bloke himself.

Wys
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Wys
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Actually there is something else I would like to bring up, which is quite important. The New York Times explains it quite well:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/31/op...ewanted=2&_r=2

"More important, aggression often has underlying medical causes that might not be readily apparent — hip dysplasia or some other hidden physical ailment that causes the dog to bite out of pain; hereditary forms of sudden rage that require a medical history and genealogy to diagnose; inadequate blood flow to the brain or a congenital brain malformation that produces aggression and can only be uncovered through a medical examination."

I can't ever recall that CM uses a vet to check out the animals first.

Does anyone know?
I know he never used to, because of the case of one poor rescue dog who had a terrible spinal problem who CM forced to endure several weeks of his treatment until a vet told him the dog did have a medical problem (can't recall the name, I thnk it was quite long and complicated!) .

If he has any sort of even vague professionalism, he would not put everything down to pack leader etc but would realise he must get all dogs vet checked esp. those showing aggression.

I hope to hear he does use a vet

I guess he would mention it in his latest books if he does?

Wys
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Actually, I wasn't missing this point at all. It is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to highlight. Both positive and negative training can go wrong if implemented incorrectly (or the problem is incorrectly diagnosed and an inappropriate positive method is used).

As I said from the outset, my trainer (and a highly regarded behaviourist) explained to me that dog trainers (as opposed to behaviourists) are taught to teach only positive methods because when used incorrectly (as will happen with ANY training method in inexperienced hands) there is less potential for harm. *However*, contrary to what many people claim, if used correctly the use of some negative methods can achieve better results than plugging away with positive methods only. As was the case with my boy. His problem was cured by an experienced positive trainer through the use of negative methods.

I'm sure many people will disagree with this particular trainer and behaviourist. That's to be expected - it's a field in which there's a huge amount of disagreement and an awful lot of personal opinion.

Some of them are. Others maintain that everything he does is wrong - which is just silly in my opinion. As you correctly point out, much of what he does is the same as what most positive trainers claim to do (when pushed).

Correct.

This is where I disagree. The way that CM presents this information is unique. I got bits and pieces from other people but it's through watching and reading CM that I've put it together into a coherent little package that really works for me and my dogs.

Ceasar Millan says (in one of his books/his website - can't remember where) that it doesn't matter what training methods you use - treats, praise, play, clicker training, the latest fad - whatever works for you. But the key to a balanced dog is to act the right way around him. This is where the vast majority of the positive trainers that I know, have worked with, read comments from, read books etc fall down. They go straight to training methods and ignore the all too important matter of how to behave around your dog.

From what you've said it would seem that you agree that "just being confident around your dog and enforcing discipline without any physical punishment" is important. If people aren't getting this message from training classes, books, positive trainers on discussion forums etc and they ARE getting the idea from CM then he's providing something important that positive training classes, books etc as a rule are missing. No?

Mods: I don't suppose we could separate out the exercise related posts into a new thread? I'm finding them interesting but they are getting a tad lost.

I have to admit to being a bit shocked at the general attitude to excercise on this forum. With obesity in dogs reaching an epidemic level I would of thought a forum such as dogsy would really push excercise as much as possible.

Instead we've actually had people say that attaching a dog to a bike and getting it to run is cruel! I can possibly see this if the dog in question is a English bulldog, however we seem to be talking about beagles and husky/ malamute crosses!

Personally my dog LOVES to run. He runs like a wippet but much more often. When we take him out with a rugby ball or to play tennis with us he will run non stop. I have no doubt that he would love to run with a bike. I really don't see the problem with this type of exercise. Or going in line skating with your dogs. Particularly if you live in a place where there isn't much off lead exercise for your dog allowed or if you have a dog that isn't reliable off lead.

I do working trials with my dog. There are a number of other dogs there. Generally when they become badly behaved they will go for a sniff. My dog will go for a run full pelt around the field. He's getting much better and doesn't do it so often and comes back when called however that is what he CHOOSES to do with his time. If he had to choose between running and sniffing he would choose running every time.

We often go walking with him on a long line. He runs ahead then I recall him, he comes, sits and then runs ahead again. The only time he sniffs is when he is at the end of his line waiting for me "hurry up mum". I have no doubt that he would love to go cycling with me.

However our local park is a bit packed for cycling. I'll maybe try and take him somewhere else.

Could you please clarify exactly what you mean when you refer to positive or negative? I realise you are not using it in operant conditioning terms, but in general terms - that's fine of course but could you give examples of negative training, for example? So that we know what you mean when you refer to this...

This is where it's so very important to be absolutely clear as to what in your view (ie as in your previous posts) is positive and what is negative. For example do you understand the term "negative punishment" and do you understand how it is applied, by positive trainers?

I do recall something about this, but again could you briefly reiterate it

...
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He's on tv and has books easily found in bookshops.
You can get excellent books telling you so much, but you have to know what to order and where to look, which can be difficult if there is no advice...

...

The problem I have with your rather blanket statements is that my owners do not feel like you do, nor do the owners of other dogs I know, nor do my friends with dogs, nor did I when I was at dog training myself. It may be your experience and I'm not trying to negate it, but ....

Wys
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I've been trying to think of a way to compare training techinques with other things and the only thing I can come up with at the moment is politics.

Now, imagine that someone starting raving on about the BMP - how they really liked their policies. Most people would take a step back and say 'WTF???'. But then you sit down and talk to that person and you find that actually the policies that they are supporting are all fairly middle of the road - perhaps keeping taxes low, supporting NHS, etc. etc. So then you turn to that person and say 'so what about their racism policies' to which they reply 'oh I don't agree with those'.

So, you then say to them 'so why do you think the BMP are good'? to which the person replies 'because they are the only ones that I have seen talk about cutting taxes and supporting the NHS'.

You try to explain that actually other parties have very similar policies without the BIG main issue, but the person says 'no, I like the exact way they represent these particular policies'.

now I realise that this isn't a perfect comparison because at the end of the day you can pick and choose what bit of training you want from a dog trainer whereas you can only vote for one political party. (I am also in no way trying to make a comparison between the seriousness of bad dog training to racism). But it may help to explain why people get so exasperated when people say they follow a particular trainers methods.

Fair enough to pick the mainstream parts of this trainer, but why does this trainer deserve so much coverage/support when you could get the same mainstream ideas from other trainers without the negative connotations?

I'm not going to keep going over and over tired old ground. Everything you have asked I have already repeated over and over in other posts. If you're really interested you can find my answers to your questions.

And that's perfectly normal and healthy. Different strokes for different folks.

If someone comes up with a package/format that works better for me I'll go with it.

To stick with your analogy - I'm not interested in politics. I'm interested in the welfare of my dog. I use what best helps my dog.

I watched a DW programme the other day, where CM tried the usual technique of getting the dog to mind him (as in the hand bite and the tssssstg) but the dog didn't take any notice, was too intent on getting at the passing dogs. CM said that when a dog doesn't take notice then you can offer something else to get the dogs notice. The owner said he liked cheese and CM happily used the cheese to take the dogs main interest from getting at passing dogs. So, although some of you diss him, he uses methods which work for the particular dog he is helping. I don't think enough credit is giving to CM for the way he helps dogs. There are too many waiting to string CM up, without actually taking into account all of the methods he actually uses; just focusing on the more contraversial methods he employs.

That isn't really giving CM a fair chance is it.