Cassie update - blood tests (Endocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency / EPI / allergy)

Hi Christine and myschievous, thought I would update you on how I got on with Gerry this morning when I took Georgie for his itchiness. I took all my print outs with the relevant blood tests I thought we should do. He crossed them all off one by one (as they do!) and explained to me the reasons they wouldn't be any good, so I went with it. He said our best option was to have another EPI test done to start with (good advice, I wanted that anyways) and also a normal blood test just to see how things are. Ifthe EPI comes back positive this time, then we know what we're dealing with, if not, then we can do further tests, one for the giardia, but it would be pointless doing any other blood tests as they would not show the proper state of the gut, pancreas and gall blader, which is what I'm interested in, so he would suggest doing an intestinal biopsy, but I'm not sure I really want her to go through that? He has changed her food from the sensitivitycontrol diet which she's been on for 5 yrs. now, over to a brilliant new food made by Hills, called Sensitive Controlled Z/d ultra allergen free, which he says is actually made from already digested food (eh???) so even if she cannot digest it herself, then it won't matter as it has already been digested???? It was very, very, expensive £20 for a very very small bag only 3kgs!!

Just as a matter of interest, he stressed to me that although people think that dogs get allergic to a change of diet, it is actually the opposite he said! He reckons dogs get allergic to the food they have been on for a while! Hmmmmmmmm! He's the vet though!

I have now booked her in for next Tuesday to give all the bloods and take it from there, so will let you know my results.

Holy cow Helen..

That food is expenssive

I hope you will get some answers....

*Just as a matter of interest, he stressed to me that although people think that dogs get allergic to a change of diet, it is actually the opposite he said! He reckons dogs get allergic to the food they have been on for a while! Hmmmmmmmm! He's the vet though!*

He`s quite right Helen But an allergy happens because the immune system isn`t functioning properly & its best to try find out why & help it get functioning back to normal, a bit about immune system below & taken from
http://b-naturals.com/Fal1998.php

*Overactive Immune System
This condition is called autoimmune disease. The body literally overreacts to normal agents found in the body, and develops antigens to destroy them. The immune system goes into 'overdrive,' and not only tries to destroy the cells it may see as bacteria, but can start to destroy normal red blood cells. The body will begin to see these cells as 'foreign,' and react by developing skin allergies, hot spots, teary eyes and other common symptoms of allergic response. However, the autoimmune response can go further, creating other autoimmune disorders.
These diseases can be either acquired or congenital. Information from Cornell University indicates that the acquired immunodeficiencies are more common that the congenital. Acquired immunodeficiencies can be triggered by:
- Puppies not receiving colostrum during the first 48 hours of life
- Parvo or distemper infection
- Ehrlichiosis
- Demodex
- Drug reactions
- Over Vaccinations
- Modified live vaccination response
- Poor diet or malnutrition
- Chemicals in the environment
- Stress
Some of the drugs implicated in triggering autoimmune responses include anticonvulsants, potentiated sulfonamides and some heart worm preventatives. The new anti-inflammatory drugs for dogs have been suspected in some reactions as well. The other diseases listed as well as poor nutrition and vaccinations can also trigger the immune system to over react, by reacting to the ingested material, injected antibodies or the struggle in fighting off bacteria and virus.
Other drugs, such as cortisone, prednisone and other steroids work to suppress the immune system (therefore reducing allergic reactions) but in this further suppression, can create more problems. As soon as these drugs are removed, the symptoms usually come right back, with a further compromised immune system, leaving the dog more susceptible to further infection. Antibiotics also suppress the immune system, and unselectively kill all bacteria, therefore destroying the friendly bacteria in the digestive system, which in turn lowers the immune system.
Chemicals that can affect the immune system include pesticides, herbicides and household cleaners. Dogs are lower to the ground, and have a greater tendency to be closer to yard chemicals, agents used in the house for pest control and chemicals used in carpets for stain and dirt resistance.
Some of the same things that trigger autoimmune disease can also lower the immune system. It can be difficult to determine whether it is an under or an over active immune system problem. A good diagnosis is needed, and a blood panel can often determine autoimmune diseases.*


Glad your going for the blood tests but don`t understand why he didn`t just take the blood today?? And I`d think a few more tests before a biopsy Giardias only a fecal sample I`d of thought at least to rule it out, but as you say hes the vet.

Thats a hell of a price for the food it`d cost a lot less to do it yourself

Look forward to hearing the results & thanks for the update H

Yes, Jeanette! That's what I thought! I will start her on it when I almost finish the bag of her food I have now, and if she does well on it, then I will obviously carry on.

Thanks for all that Christine. He was way, way behind today, as although I should have been the first in at 9.00 am. a couple had brought an emergency in and I'm afraid he didn't come back out! He was quite upset when I actually went into his surgery - shame. Anyway, I also mentioned that SIBO I had read about in one of your links which can come about after EPI, and apparently Vit. B12 injections help considerably with the overpopulation of bacteria in the gut which this SIBO causes. I think this is what it may be, due to the 2-monthly episodes she seems to have. I mean, if she was eating something "nasty" why would it be every 2 months! I have kept a very strict record of her sickness bouts and diarrhea and this is how I know it is every 2 months. He gave me a lengthy explaination too about the yellow diarrhea, stating that bile was dispensed into the gut to deal with the fat, sort of like a detergent, it breaks it down, and yellow diarrhea can be quite normal as it is only bile. I said maybe if she had eaten something it had too much fat in it and the gall bladder overdosed on the bile then? But again, I think to myself, why does this happen every 2 months then? I really think it is either a return of the EPI or the SIBO that results from having had EPI, and if the B12 injections would help that, then I would like to have them. I really can't see myself letting her go through an intestinal biopsy, as I do know the horrors of exposing the intestines, due to having had a horse with colic who had to have the operation, and there would be the fear of peritonitis, if that's the way they do it, I don't know, it maybe done by keyhole or something, but I certainly wouldn't want them opening her up like that just to investigate. I might end up down that road one day, but for the time being I am happy to just have all the non-invasive tests that I can have done on her.

The food is expensive, and I was reading on another one of your links about the EPI that someone with a dog with this condition, recommended raw beef, as it's been proven to help dogs with this condition. I may look into that further I think.

I have booked her for next Tuesday as I can't take any time off work this week, but have arranged to have next Tuesday off now that I've booked it, and I also wanted to make sure that my vet was on duty as I definitely want him doing these tests.

All is well though thank goodness with her at the moment, so fingers crossed we can find out exactly what her problem is before she has yet another episode.

Thanks for updating us Helen

How is Cassie in herself though right now??...Is she doing ok?

It's a shame they have to charge so much for the food...Just out of curiosity seeing as Cassie has to have this kind of food because of health reasons and not really out of your choice I don't supposse insurance would help with that??...Just a thought, maybe to good to be true though

*hugs* to Cassie and Georgie

Glad alls well at the mo

H don`t pin your hopes on getting a diagnosis for epi or sibo, would be great if you did, but it doesn`t always work that way & you`ll be v disappointed if it didn`t happen. It could be a food intolerance/allergy or anything really, so might be best to think along the line of ruling things out.

Throw a few q`s out on the forum you joined see what they come up with

epi? Exocrine pancreatic insufficiency .
if so i know a leo owner that has epi i know she blends all her food gets all the air out and then puts some type of powder over each meal to help her digest the meal.
if we are talking about the same condition i can contact her as i know she goes on a forum that is for owners of dogs that have epi and loads of information on the board.

just found this:
Most dogs with EPI can be managed successfully by supplementing each meal with pancreatic enzymes. Pancreatic powdered extract seems to work best in the dog. In addition, a highly digestible, moderately fat-restricted diet should be fed, which helps to overcome residual digestive deficits. Vitamin B12 supplementation should be given to dogs with low blood concentrations of this vitamin.

Hi L, yep thats what we`re talking about

All started from this thread http://www.dogweb.co.uk/talkdogs/any...l?page=1&pp=15

I`ve give H some links but the more the merrier, I`m trying to persuede her to try a home diet

Heres another 1 H, note the bit about the specific test for epi.

http://www.wsgenetics.org/articles/epi.html

will contact her and find out what diet she gives maddie.
any info can only help, i know she manages it through diet but don't know all the details, even though its a gsd health issue and mad's a leo i think it affect more breeds than ppl think.

I`m sure H will appreciate that L

Its an auto immune disease L, they affect all breeds & sadly I believe they`re on the increase
Has your friend heard of Dr Jean Dodds? Shes an expert on these things & based in the US. If she wants any info on her give me a shout, also theres an excellent forum on AI diseases in UK, is she a member of that?