I will try to explain better .
It would be partly due to very subtle changes in body language and even owner breathing and heartrate, which dogs can hear and associate with either good or bad things happening to them. I guess another example would be if I said that as a child, you may be used to your parents giving you little taps for fun, but if you knew they were annoyed and you were a bit scared, you'd hate it esp if you were pretty sensitive. That's not a very good analogy but reading this from your first post



There is an element of Jake not feeling as normal behaviour wise, because he "snuck" and "knows he isn't allowed" ... can you say how you know he knows he isn't allowed? does he give body language to say so or is it something else?
Most dogs don't "know" but respond to people's responses.
This is not a "Jake" thing but a "dog" thing. Having worked with dogs and owners, I see a lot of this
But they way you've described this shows that Jake was not relaxed and so on, he was possibly expecting to be told off in some way - either very subtly or else by you or somene (your mum? another family member?).




This rings alarm bells. He would have had a reason for not coming - and my guess is that he was already feeling worried that he would be told off or somethin like that. Something was going on in his head. The only other explanation is that he was hurting - and really felt too bad to come out. However I tend to think it would be the first reason.



You are using the bum tapping as a "punishment" in this context - most dogs don't like being punished. It scares them esp. if they are not sure about what they have done. Because they see their owner as unpredictable esp. if there is confusion about what they are doing/allowed to do.
I know you don't see the bum tapping as a punishment really but Jake will, as he is already not doing what you ask and is already having to be "got" off.


Again, alarm bells ringing ...
sounds as if he was being passively defensive or a bit scared or possibly both. Or again, maybe he was hurting.



In this situation, not a wise move even if he is used to it. He was showing you he was very unhappy either physically or mentally ...

This is either pain or fear (or possibly even both).

It sounds as if you have done it before? If so can you explain the circumstances? I only ask because dogs will start to associate back to other experiences ... if you've ever done this before, he may have been worried you were goingto do it again, even before you did.

I can understand you were scared of being bitten, we would all be the same

Again he was clearly in a bit of a state due to his body language.

This is worrying, it was almost as if he was panicking and biting without rhyme or reason. It's not good and it will get worse if he feels threatened, which I suspect was the case

Ok well that's good - also that you were able to continue after you'd been hurt as hopefully most of it was superficial (thankfully!)


That's nice


Again, how do you know he knows this? I mean, how are you sure he knows it?

That's fine, but he was clearly on the couch for a while...see, that's confusing to him.

So there are 2 occasions when he was on the couch (or previously, the bed - very similar situatoins)

Treats would have been good -probably partically defused any worries he had, so making him less reactive, and also getting him off without a struggle or conflict
And can you recall what your own body language, voice, tone, words etc were like?

I can understand why you were going carefully!
But I am sure this would be extremely threatening to Jake and I'd be seriously surprised if he was not showing something at this point - even just being very still. Or ears back, or tense mouth...it's very important to learn about such things as they give us signals as to wht the dog is thinking. They cannot talk to us, so use their own methods of communication which being humans, we often don't recognise, esp,the subtle ones.


That was predictable (probably by an experienced owner though) - not being critical, just factual


In this moment, Jake has learnt again that aggression "works" for him and helps him control the situation he is worried about. He will therefore use it again.

Ok I think you know all this was a big mistake - I dont understand why you continued, even after you'd had clear warnings from Jake.

Well, I do understand because what you did was a very "human" reaction

In a situation like this, the human needs to back off and let the dog get off in his own time, and then take management and training decisions completely away from the actual situation ie recognise a problem and work with it by training/behaviour modification (preferably with professional help).And keep safe!


He will soon be really not liking your hands near him in certain situations because he will think you are going to do this again - he may be OK when you are cuddling him but when there is a "situation" he is going to start going right up the "Ladder of Aggression" and this is partly because he is not being listened to....


Yes, they won't be helping. Avoid any "making" him esp, near couches, beds etc.
Either let him get off in his own time or call him or even ring the doorbell and praise him for coming off and give toys he likes ... but really, seriously do NOT confront him again as you will come off worse and Jake may end up at the vets for the last time


The irritation may well be lowering his tolerance and discomfort levels. He's very young to have physical problems and they will be affecting him, poor lad.


I hope I've showed you that both times it was not really sudden (from Jake's point of view) and that esp. the second time you were setting both yourself and Jake up to fail badly (and he will remember what he did and do it more next time ... ).



Again, context. He may well be fine when there is no anxiety/stress/confusion over where he is lying... I suspect this is at the root of the problem and he is being very misunderstood.

How does your mum deal with him, and what other family members do stuff with him, or command him? as it may have impact again on how he behaves. Eg if your mum has told him off in those situations, (very human thing to do) he is likely to react more and to not come to the human when he expects something bad to happen. Even the not coming to you is a huge warning something is amiss with him.



I've taken ages typing this (am not a fast typist ) so hope it has given some more insight?

It wasn't at all sudden, and Jake gave warnings that were not understood - this happens in many dog owning families.

Yes of course - you love him and he is a big part of your life. But if you love hm, you owe it to him to start understanding him as a dog, and educate yourself and your family as to how to think dog. Otherwise he will end up being put to sleep, I am pretty sure.You must get help.

Sorry to be so blunt. I am not saying this lightly, so please don't take offence - but you do need professional help from the right source, namely a reputable person form a reputable organsation IMO the situation could escalate and become more serious
Wys
xxx

Hi Lozzi

What a thread! hope you are feeling better today. Tomorrow is a new week and you can start afresh.

I have read through most of this and you have been given some brilliant advice. One thing I didn't see was how much exercise he was getting? I remember you saying you are keeping him on lead after your incident a couple of weeks ago. That is fine and you should do what you are comfortable with, however if he isn't getting enough this could be leading to feelings of frustration on his part. Obviously exercise (or lack of it) doesn't have a direct connection with him biting you, but tired dogs are generally much better behaved and more relaxed dogs. He is a young dog of a mix of active breeds and ideally needs some daily free running. Walking on the lead is ok, particularly for mental stimulation (from sniffing, etc.), but it isn't really enough to tire out a young dog physically. More vigorous activity like free running, playing with other dogs, swimming and so on is what you want to aim for.

I think one of the things that might help is if you can get hold of some good books - try "The Culture Clash" by Jean Donaldson, which explains why dogs do what they do. Also take a peek at some of Turid Rugaas' work on calming signalsa as they relate to the ladder of aggression which all dogs move up if they are not comfortable

Some of the things that you've done are not "dog savvy" (but as you say, Jake is your first dog) but you do need to get to "think dog" so that you can avoid any problems, train him well and really improve the relationship.

What are you going to do about the "tapping"? I ask as I suspect Mishflynn and others are right, in that he may accept it or appear to, but doesnt like it. Ifthis is the case there is one big major problem right there (depends on if you are reading him well or not - it may be you are right - but I'd be surprised if you are ).

Sending you support and best wishes,


Wys
x

It isn't the 'tap' it is the context and all your other body language.

rune

I don't understand why you need to "tap"your dog, dogs don't tap each other the way a human taps.

I would really take a step back from the situation & try to look at what happened from your dogs perceptive.

You must be consistent, either he is allowed on beds, furniture or he's not. You must teach him to get down from furniture if you do not want him on it, not simply push/pull him off nor tap/touch him physically. Don't bend over any dog it is threatening body language.

You need to keep calm & if you can't do that then you need to walk away from him until you calm down. He will pick up on your tension & other body signals that you will not even realise you are giving him.

Get his health problems sorted out, if he has an ear infection you can see, odds are it goes a lot deeper into his ear than you think. he could quite well be in a lot of pain that he doesn't show.

Dogs can have a very high pain threshold & can appear not to be in pain, simply because in the animal world to show pain is to appear weak.

He is only a very young dog & as you are not an experienced owner you really do need personal guidance(ie with a face to face trainer)who will be able to watch you & your dog & also show you what you should & should not do.

I'm not a hands on trainer, but I do give my dogs lots of physical contact, in play & by using T Touch massage I gain the respect of my dogs as well as their friendship.

Do have a read of the Culture Clash it's an excellent book.



You would be better off exercising his brain rather than his body, stretching a dogs mental ability is a good way for you both to have a good reltaionship

I know what Joedee means and I think I know what Lozzi means to regarding the tap. If my dogs are on the sofa where I want to get, I will say "off" and they get off. Occasionally I havent said anything to them, but "tapped" or "touched" them (usually the back of their head) and they got off, none of them have ever refused or resisted.

If its coupled with a command because the dog first refused, then I can see why Joedee sees it as negative, the dog was really saying "NO" to Lozzi in the first instance. Lozzi sees it as "normal" for Jake to do this and thats why its normal to her. I think thats how I see it anyway.

I can see what you mean LOL

Read the whole thread Lozzi, will not add any advice as I think reading through alot of peeps have already given sound advice.

So just wanted to sorry to hear your having probs at the moment but hoping you get it sorted Hugs xxx

I will try to explain better .
It would be partly due to very subtle changes in body language and even owner breathing and heartrate, which dogs can hear and associate with either good or bad things happening to them. I guess another example would be if I said that as a child, you may be used to your parents giving you little taps for fun, but if you knew they were annoyed and you were a bit scared, you'd hate it esp if you were pretty sensitive. That's not a very good analogy but reading this from your first post

There is an element of Jake not feeling as normal behaviour wise, because he "snuck" and "knows he isn't allowed" ... can you say how you know he knows he isn't allowed? does he give body language to say so or is it something else?
Most dogs don't "know" but respond to people's responses.
This is not a "Jake" thing but a "dog" thing. Having worked with dogs and owners, I see a lot of this
But they way you've described this shows that Jake was not relaxed and so on, he was possibly expecting to be told off in some way - either very subtly or else by you or somene (your mum? another family member?).

This rings alarm bells. He would have had a reason for not coming - and my guess is that he was already feeling worried that he would be told off or somethin like that. Something was going on in his head. The only other explanation is that he was hurting - and really felt too bad to come out. However I tend to think it would be the first reason.

You are using the bum tapping as a "punishment" in this context - most dogs don't like being punished. It scares them esp. if they are not sure about what they have done. Because they see their owner as unpredictable esp. if there is confusion about what they are doing/allowed to do.
I know you don't see the bum tapping as a punishment really but Jake will, as he is already not doing what you ask and is already having to be "got" off.

Again, alarm bells ringing ...
sounds as if he was being passively defensive or a bit scared or possibly both. Or again, maybe he was hurting.

In this situation, not a wise move even if he is used to it. He was showing you he was very unhappy either physically or mentally ...

This is either pain or fear (or possibly even both).

It sounds as if you have done it before? If so can you explain the circumstances? I only ask because dogs will start to associate back to other experiences ... if you've ever done this before, he may have been worried you were goingto do it again, even before you did.

I can understand you were scared of being bitten, we would all be the same

Again he was clearly in a bit of a state due to his body language.

This is worrying, it was almost as if he was panicking and biting without rhyme or reason. It's not good and it will get worse if he feels threatened, which I suspect was the case

Ok well that's good - also that you were able to continue after you'd been hurt as hopefully most of it was superficial (thankfully!)

That's nice

Again, how do you know he knows this? I mean, how are you sure he knows it?

That's fine, but he was clearly on the couch for a while...see, that's confusing to him.

So there are 2 occasions when he was on the couch (or previously, the bed - very similar situatoins)

Treats would have been good -probably partically defused any worries he had, so making him less reactive, and also getting him off without a struggle or conflict
And can you recall what your own body language, voice, tone, words etc were like?

I can understand why you were going carefully!
But I am sure this would be extremely threatening to Jake and I'd be seriously surprised if he was not showing something at this point - even just being very still. Or ears back, or tense mouth...it's very important to learn about such things as they give us signals as to wht the dog is thinking. They cannot talk to us, so use their own methods of communication which being humans, we often don't recognise, esp,the subtle ones.

That was predictable (probably by an experienced owner though) - not being critical, just factual

in this moment, Jake has learnt again that aggression "works" for him and helps him control the situation he is worried about. He will therefore use it again.

Ok I think you know all this was a big mistake - I dont understand why you continued, even after you'd had clear warnings from Jake.

Well, I do understand because what you did was a very "human" reaction

In a situation like this, the human needs to back off and let the dog get off in his own time, and then take management and training decisions completely away from the actual situation ie recognise a problem and work with it by training/behaviour modification (preferably with professional help).And keep safe!

He will soon be really not liking your hands near him in certain situations because he will think you are going to do this again - he may be OK when you are cuddling him but when there is a "situation" he is going to start going right up the "Ladder of Aggression" and this is partly because he is not being listened to....

Yes, they won't be helping. Avoid any "making" him esp, near couches, beds etc.
Either let him get off in his own time or call him or even ring the doorbell and praise him for coming off and give toys he likes ... but really, seriously do NOT confront him again as you will come off worse and Jake may end up at the vets for the last time

The irritation may well be lowering his tolerance and discomfort levels. He's very young to have physical problems and they will be affecting him, poor lad.

I hope I've showed you that both times it was not really sudden (from Jake's point of view) and that esp. the second time you were setting both yourself and Jake up to fail badly (and he will remember what he did and do it more next time ... ).



Again, context. He may well be fine when there is no anxiety/stress/confusion over where he is lying... I suspect this is at the root of the problem and he is being very misunderstood.

How does your mum deal with him, and what other family members do stuff with him, or command him? as it may have impact again on how he behaves. Eg if your mum has told him off in those situations, (very human thing to do) he is likely to react more and to not come to the human when he expects something bad to happen. Even the not coming to you is a huge warning something is amiss with him.

I've taken ages typing this (am not a fast typist ) so hope it has given some more insight?

It wasn't at all sudden, and Jake gave warnings that were not understood - this happens in many dog owning families.

Yes of course - you love him and he is a big part of your life. But if you love hm, you owe it to him to start understanding him as a dog, and educate yourself and your family as to how to think dog. Otherwise he will end up being put to sleep, I am pretty sure.You must get help.

Sorry to be so blunt. I am not saying this lightly, so please don't take offence - but you do need professional help from the right source, namely a reputable person form a reputable organsation IMO the situation could escalate and become more serious
Wys
xxx

My mum gets more annoyed at him going on the furniture than I do, so while I often laugh and am more calm, my mum just tells him ‘down’. she raises her voice, which could be seen as threatening, but she doesn’t physically do anything threatening, and she doesn’t approach him.

Dogs Tap each other in Play, We Pat our Dogs for being good, Stroke them to soothe or too Teach, "smackys" for a game & to increase motivation,

My dogs Love a play Smacky, LOVE it!!!!! But if i smacked them as a correction with the same pressure they would just hate it.

Dogs know by alot of things if they are being corrected, ie if they have ignored the first command, or by your body language.

Lozzi if you want to use the tap as a command, then i would use it WITH the verbal command not after, & obviously make your tone very light!!!!, But if you use the houseline then that should do away with the tap, & tapping in the house for commands will not help your outside recall at all.(unless you do it on a line & our uber energetic)

Jake on the other hand is ignoring Lozzi, so the "off" is not working , then she backs it up with a "negative" tap"

And to be honest, until she begins to see this, then we cant help her, as she is closing her mind to all help and advice we are trying to give.

Thanks, I will use it with a verbal command from now on.



I am beginning to see it, I thought before that people had a problem with the fact I tapped him, not when I tapped him so that was what I wasn’t understanding. I now see that I should either tap him and not give a command or tap at the same time as giving a command.
Im not closing my mind to advice being given, it is a lot of information to take in at the one time! and I was defensive over how some people were putting things across! It was a big thing that happened, and I was in shock so sorry if I was emotional and already felt terrible over what happened!