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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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09-01-2010, 10:50 PM
No one knows what happened, all anyone can do is try and give you advice, you really need to let someone come and see what is going on between you all,
In the meantime the best thing you can do is to avoid ANY confrontation.
You don't have to be defensive about it, we've all done stupid things with dogs----one of my best efforts resulted in me being bitten and the dog being PTS---admitted if it hadn't been me it would have been someone else but it was very stupid of me. I have also got away with things which I shudder to think about now.
You need to take a deep breath and start to rebuild the trust. Don't try and lift him up again,he obviously has decided he doesn't like it any more. Put the trail lead on and try and do some positive happy stuf with him again and get back on the footing you were on before this happened.
I'd also make the muzzle a happy thing to go on again as he might associate it with the wrong thing now.
rune
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Location: Motherwell, UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 17,088
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09-01-2010, 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle 
She had told him...he ignored her.....she tapped him and told him again....he still ignored her - I find it impossible to believe that through this there was no change in his posture or face. She then reached down and picked him up - at which point he bit her hand and face (which was obviously fairly close to his).
Again - I do not see this as acceptable and I hope people reading this will gather that it is not a) how a dg should behave and b) how a dog should be treated.
I imagine many of the people responding to this have seen or heard about this situation hundreds of times. I get a lot of people who have done exactly the same thing with the same results becasue they fail to realise that in a situation where it is pushed or cornered a dog will often resort to using its teeth.
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
I think you misread her opening post Tassle, she actually said:
He did move when she tapped him, he got down, so IMO there was no reason for the dog to launch an attack on her. Perhaps a more experienced owner could of seen something else in his behaviour, but Lozzie did nothing that Jake was not used to, so I cant see how she was at fault from her description. OK, you or me may not of picked the dog up, but again, he WAS used to her doing this, so IMO the attack was unprovoked, a rumble or growl would of been the warning, not an attack.
I think perhaps she needs to go back to square one, sort out his eye/ear problems and take it a day at a time.
Originally Posted by aliwin
I disagree slightly on this point, whilst I agree it is never ok for a dog to attack I think with some dogs a warning is sometimes acceptable. Our dog is in constant pain with elbow displaysia and in this weather it must be horrible for her. She will give a warning face when she is not happy and everyone in the house can read this. IMO it is her only way of saying ouch please stop this is hurting! I know this is slightly different as she was asking him to do something but what can they do if warnings are not acceptable?
Lauren, no I don't think it was ok for Jake to bite and agree the vets is the first port of call but I do think you need to go to a training class with him as he can learn to work with distractions which may help with some of the outside issues you have been experiencing. He is a mix of clever breeds (I know I have that mix too). Do you use kongs and things in the house to keep him occupied mentally?
Hope you are less shocked and sore today. Good luck hun.
Originally Posted by littlewolf
I feel this too. I was horrified when I read the title of lozzies thread.
I too am interersted in the instance where he growled at her niece and how they have got him to stop growling? Surely a warning growl is something you don't want the dog to get rid of?
Originally Posted by GSD-Sue
Haven't read all through the thread,so don't know all that has been suggested, but I would get him checked out at a vets asap, before you do anything else. I'd also get him checked for Lymes disease as we had a dog through the rescue who had attacked his owner, completely out of character & this was linked to the Lymes disease. s long as he is checked for this & treated at the first sign of it recurring he has been his usual loving self. Pain & illness can cause many animals to act out of character.
Originally Posted by Jackbox
I think thats the key to his behaviour, unless lozzi is using this form of punishment on a daily basis , then it may be the trigger to him fearing her ,
She told him to get off the bed, as we were not there , we dont know how she did this, he refuses, she smacks him or taps him, he get off the bed, and freezes on the floor, she then tries to pick him up.........all of this will have made him uneasy, and again unless Jake is used to being picked up by lozzi , he will not be happy to suddenly being picked up , add that to the negativity he has already received, and you get the outcome , that has arisen.
Why were you not happy with the treatment you recieved
But he must be able to hear , if he listened to you when you told him to get off your bed.
Poor boy, he must be very uncomfortable with this condition, has he only just become uncomfortable with his eyes and ears.... or has it been going on for a few days, since your last vet visit, did the vet give you stronghold, I did not think it worked on "mange" and can I ask why you are applying every two wks, does the dosage not say it last for up to a month?, what ear medication has he been given, if these are not working you need to get something stronger from your vet
Maybe a baby gate at the bottom of the stairs will help you in this situation
If his ears were giving his problems with balance you would see it at all times, not just when he is misbehaving , he woudl be shaking his head, holding it to one side, and would be showing discomfort on walks too.
I think you need to understand , he is pushing the boundaries, the infection may be escalating the problem, but it is not the cause of the problem, I am sure Jake is getting a little stressed with his condition now, as it has been going on for a while now,
I wonder , if that was the problem , Lozzi was not experienced enough to read Jake's, body language, and in challenging him, he has reacted...
I also agree with getitng his ears and eyes sorted out, as a priority.
please explain what ‘form of punishment’ you are referring to? jake is used to being picked up, and I hardly see how a light tap is a form of negatively, if that’s negativity then clapping your dog must be negativity too!
I wasn’t happy with the vet, coz she had the briefest look at his face, and didn’t do a skin scrape to double check that it was a mite. So I don’t even know for sure it is a mite, and some people have told me they don’t think it is.
He must be able to hear somethings, but it might be impaired. Only hearing sometimes, or if im close up…
He has been uncomfortable before the vet visit and after. The stronghold has to be applied every two weeks, but that is for a month. He got one lot on the 6th and will get the next on the 20th and the last lot on the 3rd of feb so its over a month. He is getting something called canaural for his ears.
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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09-01-2010, 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear
I cant lead him out by his collar coz he doesn’t wear one. and I pick him up, coz he can be stubborn and it can be the only way to get him out the room (which I had to do coz my mum would have gone crazy had she seen him in there). Maybe not the best thing to do, but he is usually good with it, and doesn’t mind at all, plus he is used to it. you might not do that to your dogs, but its not hurting jake and he shows no signs of disliking it.
He BIT you i think that proves how much he dislikes it
Thanks, and that link is great, it looks really good. I didn’t know you had a bull terrier, and the house lead sounds really good. i think it would be good to have that as a way to avoid confrontations, coz if he goes a place he isn’t allowed I need some way of getting him off. He does know ‘down’ but he, too, is very stubborn so sometimes he listens and sometimes he just doesn’t. i think I will definitely get the house line, as well as the long lead im getting for recall lol.
A Houseline would really help you im sure, use it everytime at same time as your verbal command,much safer for you & CLearer training for Jake
jake (who must have been about 5 or 6 months old at the time) was lying with a bone, and my niece was sitting next to him (he was the one who choose to sit next to her), she turned to clap him and he growled at her. I told her to leave him alone, which she did and she moved away from him. He has never, ever growled at me or my parents or my bf for taking food or treats off him, but he did to her and she is the only one he has ever done it too. we then started that she would give him treats a lot more (telling him a command first) and she would put his food down for him, and tell him to sit and wait, and he could only take it when she told him he could. Now, he doesn’t mind her being near him when he has a bone, and has never minded anybody near him when he is eating food, even her. I think he saw her as an equal, whereas the rest of us were in a higher position than him so that’s why we didn’t get that reaction.
I didn’t hit or smack him!! I lightly tapped him! there is a massive difference. and his listening in the house is great, today he has listened to everything I have said, it is just a few times when he chooses to be deaf.
I know you love your dog, but your understanding of the situation is wrong,
i can "punish" my dog with a look , punishments dont have to hurt.
I have been worried about you & jake, which is why ive spent allday trying to help you. If you dont want my help & just want virtual hugs thats fine, but if you actually want to move forward & help yourself & jake then you need to take stock of the situation.
Using a Houseline WILL help alot,
A untrained pup isnt Stubborn, he just lacks understanding.
Im sorry if you choose to ignore my advice
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Location: UK
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09-01-2010, 11:08 PM
Depending on the dog (and the situation and the lenght of the dogs fuse at the time) some dogs find even thinking they have got something wrong vv punishing - There are some dogs in our agility class that are so sensitive that even being told 'no' is a great punishment to them and they totaly shut down and look totaly unhappy.
Just because something dosent seem so punishing to you could be a big deal to a confused, bit ill dog
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Location: Motherwell, UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 17,088
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09-01-2010, 11:09 PM
Originally Posted by settagirl
Lauren, please don't be too upset with Jake... I wasn't going to post but I wanted to let you know, that I know exactly what you are going through... my big soft dope Jamie has bitten me and scared the life out of me too...
He has never drawn blood, but it shook me to the core and I spent sleepless nights aching with grief over it... he was ill with tummy problems when it happened and he just acted out his frustrations... it was a blip, which I am sure this is too... We went back to basics and tried to avoid the situation again. (((HUGS))) hun I feel for you, but he does love you as you love him xxx
Originally Posted by maxine
The OP has said Jake is used to being "tapped" and picked up. That doesn't mean he likes it and perhaps with a slightly shortened fuse he's not prepared to put up with it. I think it's really important after this that Jake's training is strictly reward based and he should not be "tapped" at all for getting it wrong.
I am also concerned that in stopping Jake from growling at her neice the OP has now switched his warning system off.
We all learn as we go along and sometimes we make mistakes. We have all been there. The brilliant thing about this site is you can learn much faster and so make fewer mistakes. Hang on in there LB & Jake you will be just fine!!
His warning hasn’t been switched off, he wasn’t told off or anything when he did it, we just made her have a higher position. That’s all.
I think that’s the thing though, some people on here can be too quick to jump on people for not getting things right the first time.
Originally Posted by Lou
Lauren, frontline is a monthly treatment same as Advocate.
Also Frontline will not kill Mange/Mites........You need Advocate
I'm not sure why you've been given Frontline to put on him fortnightly, also to confirm Mange Jake will need a scrape.I also agree with what everyone's saying.....Try and get Jake into a training class.
Good Luck at the vets x
Originally Posted by hades
Sorry to hear this lozzibear, I hope you a okay.
There could be many reasons why this could of happened,
I really hope you get to the bottom of it.
Has he been showing any different behaviours lately?
Any signs of pain, illness?
Its sounds so out of character for him
Did he draw blood or did he leave red marks and bruises?
Special care should be taken with Collies, Old English Sheepdogs and related breeds or crossbreeds when treating them with stronghold and advocate.
Originally Posted by Anne-Marie
I am very sorry to hear this has happened to you. There can be fewer more distressing things to happen than for an owner to be attacked by their dog. I know because it happened to Sid when Ozzy did it
We had Ozzy PTS - this was our decision and I am in no way trying to say this is what you should do with Jake. Only you can decide the future for you both.The thing that stands out to me the most is that he didn't attack you just the once. He did it in the bedroom, then again on the sofa. This really rings alarm bells for me.
I hope he gets his ailments sorted by the vet soon, this cannot be helping his mood - but I don't think condones his behaviour. I agree with Loki's Mum when she said about him challenging you and not allowing him up onto furniture. Allowing a dog onto sofas and beds elevates their status - and not something Jake needs right now. It would certainly be advisable to get some professional help with him. I know it is difficult but if you show fear around him he will sense the change between you and could make him behave differently. Try and remain calm and confident, taking more control.
To me, whether the dog was 'tapped' or not, unless it was in agony on the part of the body that was touched, it is inexcusable for it to attack it's owners face and hands that way and to the extent described.
I really, truly feel for you right now. As I said before, I remember only too well how deeply upsetting and distressing the incident was that happened to us.
Massive hugs to you and I hope Jake gets the help he needs. xxxx
Thanks for your comments and advice. I agree about the tap, that’s all it was a light tap. I didn’t hit him, or smack him or cause him any kind of pain… so I don’t see why some people are making such an issue over it… I think people are blowing so out of proportion, it was nothing and they are making me feel like I beat him or something horrible…
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Hope things improve all round LB, it can appear as though one thing is on top of another sometimes, it will get better.
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Oct 2006
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09-01-2010, 11:16 PM
Just 1 thing I have noticed, you said you gave him the command 'down' to get off the bed/sofa, this is ok if this is the only time you use this command and it means get off the bed/sofa, but what command do you use for lay down? If you use 'down' for lay down, then he was laying down on the bed/sofa and this will add to the confusion, I use 'down' for lay down and 'off' for get off something.
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Location: Wallasey Wirral.
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09-01-2010, 11:22 PM
you shouldn't be criticised by anyone imo,
you have told all about your situation and asked for advice. the best advice will come from those on your side hun. x
take care x and i hope all will be resolved and peace restored in your heart.
Karen xx
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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09-01-2010, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear
I highly doubt he doesn’t like a ‘tap’ its not like I am hitting him or pushing him. if he hates that then he must surely hate all the petting he gets. and im sure if he didn’t like getting picked up, that he would scramble to get down, but he does nothing, apart from sometimes turning to give me some licks.
Thanks for your comments and advice. I agree about the tap, that’s all it was a light tap. I didn’t hit him, or smack him or cause him any kind of pain… so I don’t see why some people are making such an issue over it… I think people are blowing so out of proportion, it was nothing and they are making me feel like I beat him or something horrible…
thank you, that really means a lot to me. I do feel like everything has just come at once, and I am fighting so many battles at the one time...
Personally i love the love you show him. i think you could be a FANTASTIC owner, but you admit you are inexperinced so why not learn from our experinces?
We arent making a fuss about the Tap, you dont realise the relevence of the tap, The problems you have started by tap training, how that has caused him not to listen (because he dosent have too) Which you have misread as stubborness.
This with addition to his skin/ mixed bed messages/ your emotional state etc has all come to a head & all the virtual hugs in the world will not make it better. I for one dont want to be giving you a vitual hug after hes bitten someone else......
Im not being nasty,im knackered & should be in bed, instead im banging my head against a brick wall, beacuse all you want is sympathy.
Please reread the whole thread.
I DO not think the tap hurt him
I Do not think you meant it as punishment
I Do think it was seen by jake as negative & i do think trying to pick him up was very negative also
I know he is used to it, but because of the circumstances this time it was different.
Please lozzi, im not having a go, im just trying to help
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Location: UK
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09-01-2010, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by lozzibear
I highly doubt he doesn’t like a ‘tap’ its not like I am hitting him or pushing him. if he hates that then he must surely hate all the petting he gets. and im sure if he didn’t like getting picked up, that he would scramble to get down, but he does nothing, apart from sometimes turning to give me some licks.
His warning hasn’t been switched off, he wasn’t told off or anything when he did it, we just made her have a higher position. That’s all.
I think that’s the thing though, some people on here can be too quick to jump on people for not getting things right the first time.
You haven't said very much about what happened with your neice other than he growled at her, it was to do with bones and it's been sorted out. Can you tell us what it was that happened and how you resolved it?
I wasn't "jumping on" you. I made the point that we are all learning and have all made mistakes and this is a great place to talk them through. I have had dogs for most of my 44 years and have committed a couple of real howlers, but fortunately no damage was done. I am still learning, on a daily basis.
You started a thread asking for advice in dealing with a difficult situation. You have also started other threads about problems you are having with Jake. Lots of people have gone to the trouble of posting constructive advice, some of which you have been very defensive about. The good thing about advice is it's free and you can ignore it, but nothing I have read on this thread has been anything but well meaning and helpful.
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Location: UK
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10-01-2010, 01:03 AM
I am not having a go at you - what has happened in this situation is somthing I see a lot of and I am just trying to help. I apologise if it is coming across wrong.
I can really add nothing more to what Mish has said - I agree with all she has put and would have put the same myself.
In answer to your earlier posts -
Warnings that dogs give vary greatly, from tension across the body to showing whites of thier eyes to tension in the wiskers and then to more obvious ones like growling, lip licking or lifting - there are many many indicators of what a dog is going to do or how it wil react in a situation,
You obviously have done this with Jake before so had no reason to feel he would react differntly this time. As you have said - it is a lesson, very unfortunate for both of you and I truely hope (and see no reason why not) that you get past it and can build a fantastic relationship with your boy.
Originally Posted by lozzibear
So what did I do so incrediably wrong that ‘that’s not how a dog should be treated’, i told him to get off, he didn’t so I tapped him (I didn’t hit, I didn’t smack or anything like that) and he moved! He then wouldn’t walk out the room so I tried to carry him, which he is used to! why is that so bad, when taking him by the collar and leading him out would be ok?? I personally, don’t see such a big difference.
The good thing about using a collar (or preferably a trail lead) is the lack of contact you give the dog.
I truely hope you can reslove this situation
Take care.