I was talking about rehoming a dog but hes only 15 months and not an exbreeder. He's just a very dominant dog whos causing problems with the others. Things seem a bit more settled at the moment though so thankfully he's still here.

Firstly, at no time at all, did I make a 'personal' attack on you !

As I said in my last post, you made a strong statement which to many ethical breeders here, could have also been taken as a personal attack, as it simply isn't true.

Many people don't spend that amount of money, and those are the ones that make profit. Does that make them better or worse than breeders like us ? You tell me.

The way I look at it --- the people that don't make a profit, or very little are the ones that already know this will be the eventuality, and therefore are happy to proceed because for them, the money isn't the issue. They are breeding to further or better their breed and maybe acquire a dog for themselves.

The ones that breed knowing they are going to make profit, in MY opinion, are doing it for the money, but that's just my opinion.

Some breeders do. Me personally (and many others on here) NO, our dogs are for life, they are pets first and foremost.

Which is the reason sweeping statements shouldnt be made, as not everyone operates in the same way.

I know many breeders who make money from the dogs. It is very rarely that the ones i know are out of pocket. Last year my friend imported her stud, part owned by another breeder. He has been used on several bitches and produced several litters. Yes he cost alot to bring in but probable in a year or two he will have made the costs that they paid out. The breeders then own his next generation.

They do pay all tests and give packs etc out and are excellent people who care 110% for the dogs. But newfoundlands go for £1,200 each and breeders, not always,but more often that not make money.

Most of the breeders i know own the studs or are in partnership with the stud owner and do not pay. They may have first option on a pup.

I can only talk regarding the breeders that i know, or i have dealt with but many have several litters a year.

Newoundlands regularly have large litters, say 8 or 10 pups at £1,2000 each. Most breeders have several litters a year by different bitches.

Most breeders "that you personally know" you mean ?

That certainly isn't the case with the majority of breeders I know and speak to. THey normally have 1 litter a year, as they normally breed to produce a pup they want.

Again, all breeders are different, and many things make up an ethical breeder, but making sweeping statements, that they all do the same, just isn't fair to the ones that do EVERYTHING right, not just a few things.

Malady

You are nit picking here!!! I took what Shibu said to be the ones that she knows. We all move in different circles but I can honestly say that I know many reputable breeders who arent out of pocket.

At the end of the day what you feel is doing everything right and what others feel is doing everything right is a matter of opinion. Other reputable breeders may think that having all vacs done, collars/leads etc., is too much. However, if you (or anybody else feels!) that this is what they feel is right to do, then that is perfectly correct too. Its just a matter of seeing things differently. You dont have to go overboard to be a reputable/ethical breeder. You just have to do it right and take responsibility for your dog's offspring. We are all singing from the same hymn sheet here so there really shouldnt be an argument about anything.

I am most definitely not condemning anybody that makes a little money from breeding their dog - as long as they do it for all the right reasons and not just purely for money!!!! Its the people that dont do the health tests or breed from dogs that are not 100% fine examples of the breed and have health problems that really make me angry. They are the ones that get all the reputable/ethical breeders a bad name because they are the ones that are breeding dogs with poor temperaments, with health problems etc., etc.,

Having said that, I will probably go overboard if ever I had a litter. I am the sort of person that would have to have everything - just so!!! I am only saying that you dont have to do that to be a reputable breeder. What you "give" to your puppies is down to what you feel is right and proper and, as I have said before, I absolutely applaude anybody who gives their all to their dogs and their puppies.

Spettadog

Don't just pull one sentence out and make a statement as if i am talking about you and every breeder in the world.

I made it quite clear that my comments on breeding are relating to breeders that I KNOW!.

You may have only 1 litter a year, but i know many newfoundland people, very good breeders, that have more than this and this is what i was making my comments on.

A friend of mine purchased a volvo with her "profits" from one litter. That is a fact.

I also know of another breeder, who's tax bill for one year was over £100k this is somebody who owns approx. 40 dogs (not my idea of a good breeder). But she adores her dogs, produces lovely dogs all with relevent tests and is very well known and recommended.

So the point i was trying to make was not a SWEEPING STATEMENT about all breeders but to say that i do know people who do make money and are not puppy farmers.

When it comes to breeding, I dont think you have ever have too much, just too little.

There are also the 'Reputable' ones that are well know and well respected, that can be unethical in the way they do things too, that was previously mentioned earlier by someone. There are breeders out there with an excellent reputation that still breed from dogs with bad temperaments, because they do well showing, or breed from a dog known to have a health issue, that can be hidden. This does not make them ethical, just because they are apparently 'Reputable'.

I agree with what you are saying about the reasons for breeding.

I agree. I'm not nit picking, just setting straight that not all reputable breeders are the same either and often the ones that give nothing but a Pedigree and the free pack from the vets, give themselves away, by not caring what their pup is leaving with.

I only 'pulled' out one sentence as it was the only one relevant to the question I was asking, and it makes it easier to see what I'm referring to than quoting the whole post. Lesson learned, I've left this post entirely in tact.

There really is no need to sound so aggresive. This is a debate afterall

Thank you

no agression intended, just wanted to make sure others reading would understand what i was saying.

We all love a good debate.

Hi again

I really do think that the best thing you can give your puppy is a loving, forever home!!!! Don't you agree!!! After all the hard work you put into rearing the puppies, the best outcome is for that puppy to leave you in tip top health with a wonderful life to look forward to.

Kind regards
Spettadog

This is why Ethical breeders carefully check there buyers and insist the puppies come back if theres a problem.
I know I turned down at least three potential buyers last time because I wasnt satisfied.
I also had a row with one because he wanted a puppy to breed from and I told him it would be restricted with the KC and in his case the restrictions would never be lifted something just didnt seem right and he's been shopping around for a Welshie, felt it was better to be safe than sorry.