The nature/nurture debate

Kind of following on from the badly behaved toy breeds thread, but to apply to all dogs how much do people think that environment and training can influence over genetics?

As someone looking for a dog to be my helper I often get told that this or that breed would be no good as an assistance dog, but I have a collie cross who started life as a rescue with herding and nipping behaviour and dominance issues and is now a beautifully behaved dog nearly 12 still enjoying working and has happily been my helper for over 10yrs!

Are some breeds more likely to respond to positive training to be able to overcome inbred behaviours? (such as her herding and nipping which she has never repeated again since her training started).

I'm looking to size down so should I be looking for the brighter breeds (even if they are more naughty to start) or the more obedient that may not be as bright to think for themselves?

Inca saved my life once as a puppy being able to think for herself when the situation was no exactly as it was in training but was real (kitchen filling with smoke and alarm failed to go off) she'd been trained to signal 'danger' at sound of smoke alarm by dropping to floor and barking instead of leading me to the sound like she did for phone and door... she was bright enough to realise to do the danger signal even though the smoke alarm had not gone off (I'd fallen asleep on sofa).. so should I be looking for a dog with Inca's level of intelligence and the signs she showed from a very young age?

What other small breeds other than potentially a small collie cross would have this kind of intelligence? .. can I teach it to a dog that doesn't start with it?

what do people think?

I would have said it was a bit of both

But it seems the fox studies show otherwise
Sorry I dont have a link for it - saw it on the TV

For about 50 years they have been breeding foxes
1 group they breed the tamest to the tamest
and the other group the feircest to the feirce

then they have tried fostering the babies - a wild one to a tame mother - and then the little one grew it was wild
They even implanted eggs and the result was the same

While I think you can teach most dogs with enough perseverance I think you should be looking at individual dogs & assessing whether they are what you want. I have seen Hearing Dog people assess a litter of cross breeds & select those within the litter which show traits that will suit their specific needs & would personally think this choice of individual rather than breed would be your way to go.

ok, though foxes in general aren't as domesticated as dogs, would that not be the same as comparing wild cats and one's brought up in a zoo to pet dogs?

Wouldn't my results be indicative that you can turn a dog's behaviour around with training? though admittedly she has had way beyond what most pet owners give their dogs with daily structured play sessions teaching and reinforcing commands I'd need for the jobs I needed her to do. And loads of puzzles that teach problem solving skills.

I'm more than willing to put the same amount of work into the next dog so wondering if that's the case couldn't I teach any smaller dog what I needed it to do, regardless of its breed? (as long as it was tall enough for example to reach into washing machine to pull out clothes)

I loved the look of the Shiba Inu for example but was told they were an independant dog who did what they wanted and often got more aggressive towards other dogs as they grew up, even with dogs they had grown up with... would that happen regardless of the amount of training that went into the dog if got from young?.. I was told the same for Lhasa Apso's! .. but know of a Lhasa who managed to save his owners life when he worked out for himself to go and get help and lead the helpers back to the man (who'd been stuck in sinking mud on a beach) .. but this kind of thinking is what I'm looking for cos it could well save my life one day in the future.

Yes I believe they do some kind of personality test and look for a dog that scores within a certain range but I don't know what it is exactly. Canine Partners do it too for their dogs I believe.

For assistance work, I'd be looking at both breed and personality.

I can see why your collie is so adept at the work. Collies are very loyal to their owners (on the whole), very good problems solvers, able to use their initiative and have a desire to please (which is why they are so trainable in my opinion).

Of course, nurture plays a very important role, but nature can go a long way to whether or not nurture will be a joy rather than a long haul (if that makes sense)

lol.. yeah.

what small breeds would have the same kind of intelligence as temperament as a collie then?

It's likely to be a crossbreed, but maybe something like a JRT x small collie would be more efficient than a collie x pug or chihuahua x JRT or a pedigree parsons russell?

For practical reasons it needs to be smaller than Inca who is 23" at shoulder as she also crossed with lab and whippet.

sizewise I'm thinking along lines of miniature poodle/Parsons russell size like 15 " so it has enough height to reach into washing machine and do specific jobs I'd need, but not heavy and light enough for me to be able to pick up in a future emergency and sit on my knee in my powerchair (say it cut his paw.. so I could whizz it down to village vets quick) as I'm thinking this will be my last mobility scooter once Inca has gone I may switch to all terrain powerchair, which is why its size and weight is quite important too.

I'm hoping to find one via Dogs Trust so it could be down to personality but if I get a choice I'm trying to work out what breeds (or crosses of) to lean towards or any to avoid? .. or if ANY dog could be trained to that level, regardless of its natural instincts and genetics?

I have heard of papillons being used as assistance dogs. Apparently they are small but energetic, bright and loyal.
http://www.servicedogblog.com/2010/1...a-service-dog/

Good luck with your search.

I think nature is important for what you need. Ita that all dogs can be trained but those breeds which have been bred as companion dogs and close working companions would take to it easier than those who are bred for independence of spirit.

Thanks yes I heard of a Papillon been a hearing dog, though HD over here seems to have standardised the breeds they are using so not using as much variety. Apparently they are popular over in the US as service dogs. I'm not sure it wouldn't be too tiny though unless it was a cross that made it a little bigger and brought it into the kind of height/weight range I was looking at.

I thought Papillons were really tiny like Chi's and Pom's? .. would they reach at least 13"?

Genetics is, in most case, everything and bear in mind that environment starts from when the bitch becomes pregnant
Interuterine environment ie a stressed dam results in increased anxiety, nervousness in pups as increased cortisol is released into the pups during the in utero period. In the nest a nervous dam will contribute to observational learning by pups. Then there are the socialisation and environmental experiences whilst with the breeder and in the new home and lack of experiences or aversive experiences during 5 – 12 weeks up to and including adolescence

Therefore you cannot really isolate nature/nurture.

All sorts of breeds and cross breeds have become successful assistance dogs.
Most behavioural problems are due to a square peg being expected to fit into a round hole so when you are looking at inherited characteristics you may have to consider how strong those actually are. If you do not actively select for certain characteristics then they will disappear and conversely if you actively select for others you may get other spin offs as in the Baleyov Fox experiments which, when selected for tameness, also resulted in changes of appearance.

So, if you have a show/pet bred dog of a particular breed, its hard wiring will be much less pronounced than those from working lines which have been selected to fulfil a specific function.

No breed of dog is currently bred to fulfil the sole purpose of a pet/companion dog.
When selecting for assistance dog you do not want a dog with huge amounts of initiative as they may be far less handler dependent than is desired.
You cannot TEACH intelligence, that is why IQ tests exist. You can enhance it, allow it to reach its full potential or not but it is not something which can be taught or acquired.

I think one of your first tasks is to stop comparing any potential dog with Inca. You are developing what some of us call “second dog syndrome”.


Why do you not aim your queries to those best placed to help you ie those working with assistance dogs of all natures for advice?