Well said Malady wish I had your way with words.

Nope... never said that.... But I'd be very surprised if there are no dogs in rescue that were bred in the first place as show/working dogs.....

Anyway... no point going over old ground... I just recognise that there are more people who have dogs as pets with no intention to show or work and that if they are bred ethically and have suitable homes lined up they have as much right to breed as anyone else. Just giving my opinion, not slagging anyone or knocking anything

Absolutely agree with everything you've said. There is good and bad in all areas of the canine world. Showing, breeding, dog ownership etc. What's the most important thing to me is the companionship I get from my dogs, the muddy walks second and anything else I do with my dogs on top is a bonus to them and me. The important thing regards breed or type is to have the right dog to fit your circumstances so that dog gets the best you can give it out of life.
In regards to breeding, firstly the question should be raised why do you want to breed a litter. There are very few responses which are justifiable. You could pick any breed or crossbreed and with some searching find the one you want in a rescue. Secondly, if it is done ethically, all health tests that can be done, are done and responsibility is taken to give your puppy owners the full support for that dogs life. Then that to me is being ethical. The big question that you must ask yourself is why you want a litter in the first place, what are your reasons.

Ian

Breeding ethically is fine and dandy, even if they are 'pet' breeders ! But as said previously, if all dogs were bred ethically whether they conformed to standard or not, what would they all end up looking like.

There is a reason for a breed standard and that is to keep THAT particular breed looking how it should and who do you have to thank for that ...............show/breeders, NOT pet breeders !

If show/breeders gave up tomorrow and only pet breeders took over, then what ? All these (ethically yes) badly conformed dogs who dont conform to standard or thereabouts.

Again, given a few years and NO breed will look like it should.

Not only that but what makes pet breeders qualified to choose which dogs are ok to breed from ? I have yet to meet a 'pet' breeder who has done enough research to know what hereditary or genetic problems their chosen breed has !

Ps Thanks Lovezois

Max's breeder was just this kind of breeder (although nowhere near 60!).

She found homes for all the puppies before they were born, and ended up actually having to let 2 people down as 2 pups from the litter died in their first week.

Although Max's mum and dad have never been shown, they are lovely specimens of their breed. There are show winners in their lines (2 of Max's grandparents). All dogs had all the relevant breed health tests and were fully examined by a vet.

One of Max's litter is now a "show dog", the others, who are just as sound in health and temperament (sp?) are "just" pets. Max is a bit more of a working dog as we do Flyball and Obedience with him, but I didn't buy a dog to specifically do that with.

Max's breeder is planning on breeding again, as she already has a pup waiting list full. She has no interest in showing her dogs, but would rather concentrate on health etc than rosettes.

I couldn't care less if Max's mum and dad had won shows or not. I was looking for a friendly, healthy, sound Boxer puppy as a pet.

Ot's NOT about gaining rossettes

It's about keeping 'YOU' pet owners happy and making sure that when you go puppy shopping, you get a dog that looks like a Boxer, like a boxer should look.

Not only that, the fact that your dogs grandparents were show winners !!! does not make their grandchildren good enough to be called good specemins of the breed and as you are not a show person, or breed expert, or Judge, how do you know ?

Sorry but that is sport, not work. No relevance really to the thread, but just a bugbear of mine.

Where did I suggest anyone should give up? As I said earlier I'm not knocking anyone or anti anything. I simply said that those breeding for pets, provided they do so properly, should be given the same respect as show breeders. And for the record I don't show or breed (and don't intend to).. but I can assure you I have done all the research on my breed....and I'm perfectly aware of what hereditary/genetic problems my chosen breed could have.

pleased to meet ya

Not being up to show standard can be anything from colour mismark, ear set not `right`, all sorts of purely aesthetic reasons which a judge would penalise for but which are not detrimental to the dog itself.
A breeder breeding for Show `quality` [ aiming for best possible health and conformation ], would sell pups not of Show quality as pets, [ which does`nt mean the dogs cant do other things of course ! ], therefore imo are already providing for the `pet market` anyway and there are more than enough of them breeding to still produce more dogs than there are homes for, [ some are more ethical in their practises than others of course ].

Logically, to have a hope of producing good healthy dogs, they have to be health tested for - their parents have to have been tested, theirs too, and so on. That means having a Pedigree which can be verified. Most having such Pedigrees tend to have come from carefully planned Show lines or carefully planned Working lines. And even with the most carefull genetic knowledge and application, what are the odds of every ethical breeder turning out a litter consisting of all or even half being Show `quality` ?
One exeptional pup perhaps, maybe even two, but generally more than that is pretty rare - that means all the other pups will be classed as `pet` quality.
The sad fact is, there are always more dogs needing homes than there are homes available. If breeding were restricted to only those with the most knowledge and expertise, numbers of homeless dogs would be slashed massively.
Do I think Show only people should be allowed to breed ? No.
As I have said I dont agree that all Breed Standards for the show ring are satisfactory for all breeds.
Do I think only those with the greatest knowledge of their breed, who do every health test under the sun should be allowed to breed ?
Yes.
Do I think people who like the look of a breed but don`t want the [ positive ], worky traits of that breed should be `catered` for ?
No.
If someone only wants a breed only for how it looks, and does`nt want that dog to have a spark of life in its eyes which comes from its breed traits, from the very essence of that breed, then I believe they should look for a different breed which already has the traits they want, not expect them to be bred out to suit.

Some comments in the thread seem to convey, [ unintentionally I`m sure ], that a rescue dog is always going to be `poor quality` or will have lots of problems.
From my pov, a rescue is the ideal place for people to choose a dog of their prefered breed because [ good ] rescues temperament test, health issues are often already apparent when present, and rescues always have purebreds in, so it takes the guess work out in terms of ` will the puppy I choose from a working breed turn out to be too much to handle even though they were bred to be `pet only` and the breeder did all the health tests but can`t possibly predict if a pup will have working/difficult breed traits or not just because the parents dont...

**Breeds originally bred to be dog aggressive for fighting do not come within `positive worky traits` therefore imo should never be strived for as something to keep in a breed to preserve its essence in that specific regard, but breeding that out is for the benefit of the dogs imo and not because of human personal preferences when considering what they look for in any breed.

Thats a bit sweeping, some of us do understand that hence some of the responses on the thread


I`m a non-show person, [ mine are all rescues ], and am anti-some breeds in the show ring which I consider to be unhealthy cariacatures, but who does believe that [ most ] breed standards are as they are for good reason - not sure how you would catagorise me regarding my understanding of the general breeding situation and what I consider ethical or not