I know you didn't categorically say I was cruel, I was expressing the underlying feeling that many people seem to have, which is of it being unethical. I myself do find it constructive, as long as it is understood and well applied, and was just making it clear, and hoping people understand I don't want a dominance discussion.

Camborne is in Cornwall. There's a few trainers round her, I was interested in lady up in Devon who uses Jan Fennell's methods but it would have cost over £100 to employ her, and frankly I don't want to use someone cheaper who I don't like! I booked in to meet a trainer before, the local KC one, and she was absolutely horrendous. She was the most horrible, and inneffective old baggage you could ever find!

I would personally not go for Jan Fennell's methods because you would not learn the principles nor the mechanics of dog training (IMO it would be a waste of money therefore).

I've just been reading a good book called "When Pigs Fly" by Jane Killion, it's about motivating dogs, "difficult" dogs, and might help or be of interest. Her dogs are bull terriers and she's done some fab things with them - agility, etc. The methods are suitable for hounds, etc too.

In case you are interested:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fl.../dp/1929242441


There don't seem to be that many trainers in Cornwall but this one looks quite good and a nice area to train in http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/digitallake/vision/

What you could do, is ask to go along and watch before paying any money bearing in mind a normal class may not be exactly right for you or your circumstances.

Look, some dogs are harder than others aren't they? If I gave you a red-zone pit bull to handle and when you struggled said you were a bad owner then it would not be true would it? All I said was that sometimes I am not so much genuinely envious, but very much admiring of how some other dogs are towards their owners. I was saying, God wouldn't it be easier, lol. Not God, lets take her back to the kennels, give up, get a better one. I made that clear. And people say I am defensive?!
I never used to be ya know. I am now due to the strength some people come at you, or the strength of some people personal or biased opinions which you have to fight through.
I respect anybody for answering in a non judgemental way, and constructive way. It is also hard to tell what people mean and how they mean it sometimes.
Mattie- don't take it so personally, please. The advice you were giving out may make a difference to some people but I honestly found the way you wrote it condescending,due to your saying you simply don't allow you dogs to do this or that. It makes me feel that you, and maybe others see me as incapable or a bit of a stupid owner. Obviously I attempt to stop my dog from doing naughty things. I just feel tutted at, rather than genuinely advised, but I can see you put effort into your posts- so do I all over the internet, mainly about animals, and I know how much brain energy it takes from you, hoping the other person will take the time to understand it and benefit from it. But I dont think you should expect to 'save' dogs online. Are you qualified in any way? Its just lots of people are 'bookwise,' including me, and know a lot but it isn't the same as being experienced and having personal wisdom and true understanding of different situations. There are millions of knowledgeable people out there tapping away just the same, sharing their knowledge and building websites. I don't think you can place yourself so highly, and expect to 'save' dogs unless you are in a place to become perhaps physically involved and actually train dogs yourself. Do you do those things? You appear to be wearing you heart on your sleeve in the emotionally draining pursuit of a good cause-Its a big expectation to put on yourself for a start to go about 'saving' dogs just by posting personal advice, and then if you get a negative reply to anything you've written you become personally hurt- you're bound to get objections sometimes since unless you come in and say 'I am Dr. Mattie' or ' I have trained dogs for the last 40 years,' or something you are unlikely to meet with complete acceptance.Even if you were so qualified as that people still argue.
I was defending myself purely because people- even very nice people who do not maybe even know it- can say things which cause the other person to feel silly, misunderstood, guilty etc because of assumptions they make and biased opinions they are using. I am just as much a victim, as you, I promise!! It's just you didn't understand you'd said anything hurtful. I think lots of people automatically talk in a slightly condescending manner to others, not because they want to or even realise. I must do it too. Especially, as I have said on forums. I am not protecting myself against good advice just trying to deflect this kind of attitude from people, trouble is they felt innocent when giving the advice and now think it is I who has the problem.

Personally Jan Fennell is not my favourite person, but the lady I found, who was trained in her methods is very much her own person, and I felt positive about what she said on her website. Besides, we all have our own opinions don't we, and I think Jan Fennell is better than the KC dog trainer at the least! I will go where my opinions take me....!

I'm so confused now... why ask for advice if you are ready to argue with people who really do know what they're talking about?? Wysiwyg was giving you advice because she understands dog behaviour and understands why Jan Fennels may not be suitable for you.

Yes, this lady may be better than the KC 'baggage' but from what I have read you've only read her website (y'know people can make their website look really good) and Wysiwyg was advising you so you don't waste your money on yet another trainer/behaviourist who can't help you.

(BTW I've used Jan Fennels methods - and then had to sort my dogs out afterwards! )

I do wish you the best of luck and can sympathise, (owning and training dalmatians aint easy either!) but am not sure why you came asking for advice when you clearly don't want to take any of it.

Azz is doing his best to sort a backlog along with everything else he has to get done, bare with him hun, the authorisation will get sorted don`t worry

Heck no it is`nt wrong and I for one am chuffed to see you here


Is this the same one I know about which needed a lot of help afterward - the one which hid under a vehicle when the `trainer` turned up to take the dog away for sessions after the initial stooge `assault` [ as the dog must have seen it ] ?
If not the same one I have certainly heard of others as well which were also very badly let down the same way, sometimes a `name` seem`s to be what is used on dogs instead of actual skill`s employed to treat a dog as an individual


Totally agree with you, for some dog`s even the most experienced stooge dogs are just too much pressure for a highly stressed and intensely fearful dog to cope with in the way many `standard` stooge principles are applied, some need such tiny steps that it will seem endless waiting for results but if that`s what a dog needs then it should never be rushed into close contact too soon with a stooge no matter how fantastic the stooge dog is. Then there are the one`s who use stooge dogs which are powerful and confident about their physical ability so stomp their authority on the fearful dog, as was the case iirc of the one I mentioned which hid under the vehicle on sight of the `trainer`.
Most dog aggression is fear based, so the dog learns to mind manners from the forceful stooges but that does`nt overcome the fear it just roots it even more, the dog just becomes too afraid to express how uncomfortable they feel so just adds another fear instead of fixing the original one

I know how much you put into it, and your dedication, you have my respects as you know

Please don`t go Mattie, it`s unfortunate that you have been taken the wrong way, I know you are`nt condescending and that you are passionate about helping dogs, words can so easily be taken the wrong way, please stay and give people here the chance to get to know you and your extensive knowledge the way I do

I`ve lost the thread now. Or possibly the plot. Never met Angela Stockdale. The only way I`ve ever seen them used is for a fearful or aggressive dog to be in the same area, not facing, at a distance, then rewarded when calm, then gradually over the weeks the stooge dog is turned, then brought a little closer, then walked past. Progress is at the pace of the dog. Rewards only given when calm. That`s what I mean by using stooge dogs.

Skyespirit, taking things personally goes both ways - I have known Mattie a long time, a good few years, and she genuinely wants to help, she does`nt do condescending, just straightforward, there`s a difference - please try to see what she wrote in the context which is someone who does`nt know you or your dog so can only put things in a general way, not a personal one - please don`t back away from her experience just because of taking her the wrong way on the written word

She was referring to rescue dogs, getting them homes instead of them being destroyed, but in terms of rehab and training, yes she can be the difference between a dog dying or not by steering people away from the tools and trainer types who use force and pain, she knows how much damage can be done to a dogs psyche and if she or anyone else turns just one person away from methods which could cause serious danger to their dog physically and/or mentally then yes she and others may very well have saved that dogs life.


I can understand the defensiveness, anyone with a difficult problem to overcome can feel attacked especially when they were not the cause of the behaviour, heck with my crew and some of the severe difficulties they came with, in their early days of rehab I felt like screaming ` for goodness sake I did`nt do this to them` when people passing by gave looks of disapproval at me because my horrendously abused dogs were`nt like meek little lambs, those people did`nt know what horrors my dogs had been subjected to, they made assumptions, but rather than scream as I wanted to I just had to keep calm and remind myself that they were ignorant and judgemental and that it was`nt me who needed to feel defensive but the vile morons who caused the problems in the first place.
Any judgement you may feel is aimed at you is not the case, it will be at whomever caused the difficulty for your dog, so please take a deep breath on that one

Please also heed Wysiwyg re Fennel and her underlings, [ or anyone who has done her courses because yes that is the way they train regardless of shiny websites ]. If you look up threads by Hammer and his experience of a Fennel clone I hope you will reconsider and not go down that route, there are, imo, far better and considerably cheaper trainers/behaviourists out there

As for Lurchery behaviour, yes most seem to be very placid but it really does depend on what`s in the mix and the experiences of each dog through their life. If either parentage had temperament issues which could have been passed on that`s part of it for many, if not socialised properly that`s a biggie, and if not treated properly generally that`s another biggie, any and all aspects which can cause behavioural difficulties, not just in Lurchers of course but in any dog.

I wonder if an Anxiety Wrap may help your doglet ? Perhaps try initially with a close fitting t-shirt or swimming cossie/leotard, [ daft as it sounds but for the flexibility and close fit could give an indication of if a Wrap might help ].

Writeups on the Wrap here - you might recognise a certain Lurcher who is now the model for the Wrap, I got him one in 2006 shortly after I first adopted him and the difference it has made for him - you might recognise the behaviour it helped him with too - you can read on the reviews

http://www.agilitynet.com/reviews/an...ialpowman.html

Retail link

http://www.agilitywarehouse.com/prod...il.cfm?id=1277


PS to Lottie - you and Mattie have a lot in common in terms of having `that feel` for dogs which is born, not taught, how about you shake hands and start again you two, pretty please you will I`m sure find a lot of parallels in methodologies and could have some great insightful discussions between you

That`s indeed how it is supposed to be done, but sadly some people try too much too soon and throw the dogs in at the deep end, and some use stooges who give a dog what for just because they have the physical ability and confidence to do so which basically frightens the dog into submission instead of helping them