Various training clubs. Which type have worked for you?

I spoke to a guy the other day who runs a BIPDT Dog Training School. They can use spray collars and are not what you would call 100% positive. But he says they get results.
He also said there was a 'pink and fluffy' APDT Club down the road and all their handlers are coming to his club because positive reinforcement does not always work especially as the dogs get older. He said the APDT club couldn't handle the problem dogs.

Have you any experience of trying different dog training schools and if so which did you find worked better?
Do you think there is anything in what he said?

I think it depends on how much work the handler of the dog will put in. I would not want attend a class that was using these methods in a class situation as you have to think of all the dogs present - not just the one with the issues.
As for saying that the APDT cannot handle problem dogs - I think he needs to look in to a bit more before making statements like that - I know many APDT registered trainers who are fantastic at dealing with problem dogs - many of whom got into training to deal with their own problem dog! (And succeeded very well I might add!)

As I mentioned on a different thread - we have a few - not so nice- clubs around here and I get lots of people from those places, mainly cringing to start with!

I would not say everything I do is 100% positive - I will raise my voice to dogs, I will give them time outs, some people use harnesses and some people use head collars.

I will offer clicker training if people want it but I don't insist on it. I assume people enjoy coming and seem to get positive results as they come back and often bring second dogs as well.

I never like a dog trainer that makes himself sound better by slagging off another trainer! I would have been more impressed if he had spent his time talking to you about what he does/the results he gets/ and inviting you to come and watch training, as it is he used his time to slag off another club....says it all really.

I own 4 rottweilers that have been trained using positive methods so it can work and it does work, but much depends on the talent of the trainer {which the chap you talked to seems to lack }

here is a quick vid of one of my dogs {trained with positive methods,} the links to the vids are in the thread
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=121655

ETA: people often assume that to get a well behaved rottie you have to be hard on them, the complete opposite is true, a rottie treated harshly is not a well balanced dog,

For those dog trainers that say positive reinforcement doesn't work, then all I can say is that they are not doing it right!! Many people say they only use positive reinforcement & whilst they may not actually be using positive punishment, they are still using negative punishment & negative reinforcement without realising it. So no wonder that they think positive reinforcement doesn't work!

And for those that think there is a place for punishment in dog training, consider this:

The Problem with Punishment

Perhaps the biggest problem with punishment is that it does appear to work.
Yell and the dog stops, frozen. Threaten and the dog retreats. Knee him in the chest and he takes his paws off your pant leg. Perhaps in the future the dog avoids jumping on the kneeing person altogether but may still jump on everyone else - or he may generalize that anyone in the doorway is dangerous and therefore to be avoided.
The "pay off" to the punisher is a feeling of control - the appearance of results. The dog stops what it was doing, for the moment.

He may not be jumping up, but if what you want to teach the animal is proper polite greeting manners, you really haven't taught what you intended. A dog whose defensive freeze, fight or flight response has been triggered is not processing through his problem solving frontal lobes, he's operating on adrenalin and escape/avoidance response.

" ... punishment may buy you a temporary suppression of a behaviour but remember that you have not killed the behaviour. You have merely brought about an emotional state that is incompatible with the behaviour you want to get rid of. The dog is too upset to do anything for the time being ... Punishment is like a carpet bombing. The behaviour you wanted to target gets hit but so does a huge portion of the dog's whole repertoire. Dogs that are punished a lot behave a lot less in general." - Jean Donaldson, "Culture Clash"
The threat of physical punishment makes him appear obedient and subservient. But what does the dog really learn? That sitting for petting is preferred over jumping up? No. He learns that avoiding visitors and being invisible is safer than greeting them. What is the long term fall-out? Suspicion of strangers? Anxiety whenever the door bell rings? Instead of a leaping, happy, social dog, we now have a stressed dog who skulks in the background or barks instead. Over time, this chronic anxiety and conflict at the arrival of visitors can develop into a serious anti-social greeting problem. "He was getting so much better about greeting people at the front door - until he bit the pizza man for no reason." No reason? There is always a reason.

Shock and Awe?
THE PROBLEM OF UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES
Dogs learn by association: .... If ..> Then.
Whenever A happens, B appears to follow.
The fall-out of punishment:
If the dog likes 'B', a conditioned positive emotional response to 'A' occurs.
If the dog dislikes 'B, a conditioned negative emotional response to 'A' will occur.
Example:
A: the sound of the doorbell > predicts B: a visitor = emotional response - expressed by unwanted behaviour: barking.
• If the dog loves visitors, he barks in excited anticipation of the arrival of new friends.
• If the dog is afraid, he barks and becomes anxious - either while hiding from the scary thing, in an attempt to call for help, or to actively drive the scary thing away.
• If the dog is territorial, he barks and becomes agitated, warning the intruder away with offensive strategies.
A: visitor > predicts B: negative consequence (owner stress, scolding, leash correction, shock) = increase in negative emotional response.
The once friendly dog who experiences punishment at the arrival of guests may begin to dread the sound of the doorbell. The territorial dog whose barking is punished may stop barking, but have an INCREASED resentment for intruders. Now he will bite without warning.
A very soft dog who is anxious and barks out of fear who is scolded or experiences a physical consequence (positive or negative - coddling or physical correction) may result in increased anxiety. You cannot punish a dog into feeling safer or more confident. Hugging and cooing "don't worry honey, mommy will protect you" may increase the stress the dog is feeling. Now the owner appears stressed, too!
Let's look at the simple exercise "leave it"
Dog reaches for your sandwich and hears "leave it" followed by a smack on the nose or jerk on his leash.
The dog flinches back, the sandwich is safe. In the future the dog will startle back at the command - he learns that "leave it" is a warning of future smackings or jerks to come.

- vs. -
Dog is taught the neutral phrase "leave it" as a cue to come away from an off limits item and look at the owner.
Behaviour is heavily rewarded and taught to fluency. The sight of the item becomes a cue to seek out and gain eye contact with the owner.
Later - dog spots off limits item and hears "leave it!"
Punished dog ducks, flinches back. Heart rate and adrenalin go up. Dog avoids item and person.
Association: unattended sandwiches, tables, dining rooms are only safe places to sniff when the owner is absent.
Positively trained dog turns away from item and runs happily to the person who said "leave it."
Association: unattended sandwiches signals potential reward opportunity, seeks out owner.
Both dogs left the item alone.
One dog experienced a negative emotional response, the other a positive emotional response.
The fall-out is that the punished dog not only avoids the item, but also the dog owner. We've not only punished stealing, but may have also punished coming when called, being reached for - perhaps he ducks when you reach to pet him, is harder to get hold of to get the leash on, or more difficult to groom. We've negatively impacted the dog/owner relationship.
The punished dog avoids the owner. The rewarded dog runs toward the owner.

absolutely - spot on.
Any slavish adherence a Method means that the trainer isn`t looking at individual dogs. The best Trainers I`ve met have learned through experience and reading and have open minds.

do you have a link to the site this info came from?

I do ~ http://www.diamondsintheruff.com/punishment.html

I hope the link works!

brill thanks for that

I use postive methods with my Estrela Mountain Dogs and my Jack Russell Terrier. I attend an APDT training centre. I do clicker training. I use treats and praise.

I don't use check chains, E collars and intimidation.

All my dogs are happy, well socialised and well behaved. I wouldn't touch a trainer who is prepared to use E collars and thinks punishment works better than praise. I prefer my dogs to love me than to fear me.

Well sounds to me as if he feels threatened, as he's so busy dissing the trainers down the road and calling them names

Anyone can get "results" whatever that means, as long as the method is used correctly. Personally, most BIPDT I've met, except for 2, have no real knowledge of dogs but are good at the pullling and the yelling. However I do think things are slowly changing.

Not dog training schools (although I've watched different types for studies) but actual dog training. I used to be choke chain, punishment and reward owner/trainer. Now I use reward based methods.

It's the reward based ones, trained with commitment, that help me call my dog chasing deer away and back to me. Oh yes - reward based training works really well, IF an owner puts in the work!! LIke anything worth having.

Wys
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