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Jackie
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27-11-2006, 01:49 PM
All breed standards require male dogs to have two descended testicles......yes you can gain permission to show a castrated dog, but unless said dog was an already know dog in the ring, I doubt it will do well , there is always the exception I know.

It would take a brave judge to place a castrated dog over an entire one, specially if the castrated dog was just coming into puppy/junior classes.

Nothing stopping you having a go, but be realistic , and if you get placed then great.

At the end of the day, these requirments are not down to a judges discrection, it states all dogs must be entire male and female, to show at KC Champion shows. Othe factors will be down to what a judge likes and dislikes.

I know in my breed there was a stunning Boxer with a tail (swedish) at crufts this yr, he oused pressence, was one of the best dogs there, but he was overlooked by the judge, his sister by the way was placed, which caused a bit of a stir.

Good luck if you decide to show him.
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scorpio
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27-11-2006, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
All breed standards require male dogs to have two descended testicles......yes you can gain permission to show a castrated dog, but unless said dog was an already know dog in the ring, I doubt it will do well , there is always the exception I know.

It would take a brave judge to place a castrated dog over an entire one, specially if the castrated dog was just coming into puppy/junior classes.

Nothing stopping you having a go, but be realistic , and if you get placed then great.

At the end of the day, these requirments are not down to a judges discrection, it states all dogs must be entire male and female, to show at KC Champion shows. Othe factors will be down to what a judge likes and dislikes.

I know in my breed there was a stunning Boxer with a tail (swedish) at crufts this yr, he oused pressence, was one of the best dogs there, but he was overlooked by the judge, his sister by the way was placed, which caused a bit of a stir.

Good luck if you decide to show him.
Thanks for that Jackie,
I think we all know how political showing is at the best of times and we could have the best dog in the class and get 2nd place or thrown out. If my puppy is able to keep his testicles then I know, having been in the breed for so long, that he is a very nice specimen and should do well, but only under certain judges. I was trying to ascertain points of view as I had put showing him totally out of my mind but have been encouraged to give it a try even if he does end up being neutered. I think that, so long as he progresses as well as he is doing, I will take him to a few shows and, if I think he is being knocked because of it, will take it no further. However, it would be nice if he did do well and it encouraged other owners of neuters to show theirs. If it became the norm to have both entire dogs and neuters competing then judges who have felt awkward may feel more comfortable about placing them.
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megan57collies
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27-11-2006, 02:08 PM
JACKBOX
You say "It would take a brave judge to place a castrated dog over an entire one, specially if the castrated dog was just coming into puppy/junior classes.

Nothing stopping you having a go, but be realistic , and if you get placed then great.

At the end of the day, these requirments are not down to a judges discrection, it states all dogs must be entire male and female, to show at KC Champion shows. Othe factors will be down to what a judge likes and dislikes"


Not a brave judge to place, just an honest one. If the best dog in a class happens to be a neutered one.
More and more neutered dogs are doing well in the showring as opinions are changing around the ring.
Where does it say that only entire male and female dogs can be shown at Champ shows? If a dog has permission it can show at any level.
People go into showing for different reasons. I was told why show my boy, who has done very well so far, thank you very much, as I had no plans to use him for stud, even though I have been asked. By removing his bits, you only lose the dogs ability to reproduce. Take away his testicles, the same dog is still there.
You mention an undocked dog at Crufts which was one of the best there according to general opinion. Are you saying that the judge overlooked him because he wasn't docked. How is that fair then as it clearly states in your BS that dogs can be docked or with tail. So why did the judge fault against this dog when there wasn't a fault there. I just ask as you use this as an example.
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megan57collies
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27-11-2006, 02:28 PM
Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
Thanks for that Jackie,
I think we all know how political showing is at the best of times and we could have the best dog in the class and get 2nd place or thrown out. If my puppy is able to keep his testicles then I know, having been in the breed for so long, that he is a very nice specimen and should do well, but only under certain judges. I was trying to ascertain points of view as I had put showing him totally out of my mind but have been encouraged to give it a try even if he does end up being neutered. I think that, so long as he progresses as well as he is doing, I will take him to a few shows and, if I think he is being knocked because of it, will take it no further. However, it would be nice if he did do well and it encouraged other owners of neuters to show theirs. If it became the norm to have both entire dogs and neuters competing then judges who have felt awkward may feel more comfortable about placing them.
You are quite right. If you go into showing in the first place you find that sometimes a dog gets placed because of the person on the end of the lead and not on the dogs merit. Can't see how that will change. But I think you go in, confident that your dog is good enough to win on a certain day. The important thing is to enjoy the showing. It can't be about five minutes in a ring. It would be a very timely and costly affair otherwise. So many exhibitors loose sight of this.
Go, enjoy your day, enjoy your boy and see what happens.
Like you say if more good quality neutered dogs enter into shows, opinions would have to change. It has with undocked dogs in some breeds ie, rottis. It all takes time.
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scorpio
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27-11-2006, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by megan57collies View Post
You are quite right. If you go into showing in the first place you find that sometimes a dog gets placed because of the person on the end of the lead and not on the dogs merit. Can't see how that will change. But I think you go in, confident that your dog is good enough to win on a certain day. The important thing is to enjoy the showing. It can't be about five minutes in a ring. It would be a very timely and costly affair otherwise. So many exhibitors loose sight of this.
Go, enjoy your day, enjoy your boy and see what happens.
Like you say if more good quality neutered dogs enter into shows, opinions would have to change. It has with undocked dogs in some breeds ie, rottis. It all takes time.
Thanks for the encouragement, I always come home with the best one so I'm sure nothing will change there.
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Patch
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27-11-2006, 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by pod View Post
Can you say where this information has come from please patch.
From the KC.

There is nothing in the showing rules which people follow when entering which states a judge `should` or `must` mark down a neutered dog therefore to do so is not within their remit.
As neutered dogs are allowed in the ring, it means that such dogs do not *need* to be judged on that particular aspect of the breed standard because its simply not applicable.
I did just come off the phone from the KC [ again ] to further clarify this.

Also, all aspects of judging are covered generally under the Judges Code of Best Practice, and I feel these elements to be specifically pertinant, [ from the KC website ] :

------------------------
During Judging

1.14 Treat and handle all competing dogs in a confident, careful and consistent manner. Judges must not harshly handle, maltreat, or penalise unfairly any dog.

and

General

The following are general requirements for Judges;

1.19 Absolute integrity in order to judge honestly and impartially, and to place dogs solely on their merit.

------------------------------


I also asked if or when the KC will alter the wording on this aspect and there are no known plans to at this point however they asked for anyone querying this to direct letters to Caroline Hallet at their Piccadily address, [ the lady was fine about me putting it on a forum, I did ask first ], and if there are enough queries about the wording, who knows...
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scorpio
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27-11-2006, 05:36 PM
Thanks for the information Patch, I emailed the KC this morning to try to clarify a few things with them, no reply as yet but you obviously got through to the right people.
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pod
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27-11-2006, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
From the KC.

There is nothing in the showing rules which people follow when entering which states a judge `should` or `must` mark down a neutered dog therefore to do so is not within their remit.
As neutered dogs are allowed in the ring, it means that such dogs do not *need* to be judged on that particular aspect of the breed standard because its simply not applicable.
I did just come off the phone from the KC [ again ] to further clarify this.

Also, all aspects of judging are covered generally under the Judges Code of Best Practice, and I feel these elements to be specifically pertinant, [ from the KC website ] :

------------------------
During Judging

1.14 Treat and handle all competing dogs in a confident, careful and consistent manner. Judges must not harshly handle, maltreat, or penalise unfairly any dog.

and

General

The following are general requirements for Judges;

1.19 Absolute integrity in order to judge honestly and impartially, and to place dogs solely on their merit.

------------------------------


I also asked if or when the KC will alter the wording on this aspect and there are no known plans to at this point however they asked for anyone querying this to direct letters to Caroline Hallet at their Piccadily address, [ the lady was fine about me putting it on a forum, I did ask first ], and if there are enough queries about the wording, who knows...
Patch, thanks for the info. Could you please clarify which are your words and which are those of the KC. It's impossible to tell form the above.
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Patch
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27-11-2006, 06:21 PM
Originally Posted by pod View Post
Patch, thanks for the info. Could you please clarify which are your words and which are those of the KC. It's impossible to tell form the above.
The bits between the ---------------- are from the actual rules, [ these bits below if that as clear as mud ] :

During Judging

1.14 Treat and handle all competing dogs in a confident, careful and consistent manner. Judges must not harshly handle, maltreat, or penalise unfairly any dog.



General

The following are general requirements for Judges;

1.19 Absolute integrity in order to judge honestly and impartially, and to place dogs solely on their merit.
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Patch
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27-11-2006, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by scorpio View Post
Thanks for the information Patch, I emailed the KC this morning to try to clarify a few things with them, no reply as yet but you obviously got through to the right people.
I usually ring them, easier to find out the right person specifically to talk to that way, thats all
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