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Lizzy23
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11-03-2011, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
I know, tis quite astounding! What about the Spaniels, the HPR's etc.. that can actually swim unaided and manage to go the way they intent to aswell!!
oops am back agreeing with you

as for personal opinion, given a choice i wouldn't have a springer with a full tail, i personally have seen too many that have had to have tails amputated or have spent their lives with sore tails
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EnR
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11-03-2011, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by kobi View Post
Kobi is a good example.
If the litter had not been routinely docked I would have had a dog with tail.
You could have done what I did and ask for one puppy to be left undocked. It would mean the breeder having to choose your puppy before 3 days old, though. I do wonder if I'd just gone to any breeder and given in to the docking I would have got an easier one.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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11-03-2011, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
You would be very surprised how often breeds like Spaniels and the lightly coated HPR breeds (who, when left undocked, have long whip like tails) endure injury to undocked tails when working.

It is also a myth that a dog cannot communicate with a docked tail. My dog dogs docked tail is just as expressive as a full one, whether it be wagging a mile a minute, tucked in because she is scared, etc. Besides, there is FAR more to communication than just a tail. Also, is there any actual evidence that tail docking is detrimental to the balance of a dog? given the number of Spaniel and HPR breeds that are versatile in all kinds of working roles, I don't believe for a minute their 'balance' has been affected by being docked.

If done correctly following proper procedures, docking is NOT cruel to the dog. There is a difference between a person perceiving something to be cruel, and it ACTUALLY being cruel and detrimental to the life of the animal. If you want to talk about cruel, what about the breeding of dogs who can't breath properly? or the breeding of dogs with physical and structural deformities? or the breeding of some breeds who are so riddled with genetic health problems that they are lucky to make past the age of 7 or 8? now THAT is cruel.
Yes I agree all those things are cruel ALSO - jusr because other cruelty goes on dosent mean we should turn a blind eye to other things

as for them not needing the tail
I know in some cattle country in america the farmers dock the collies tails so they turn LESS quickly and have to go wider

watching my dogs run and twist and turn there is no doubt that they are using their tails for balance and agility - they also are using thier tails to slow down as well

and comunication - well I dont know about everyone else but watching my dogs there is far more subtle comunication than just wagging up and down

There is the teeny tip of the tail slapping against the floor in anticipation

there is the curve out at the tip that indicates the level of concentration
holding the tail out horizontal - or the base in the same position but with the tip curved over their back (aka I am in an ideiot mood)

Yes of course anyone can adapt to amputations - as C&D says she has lost a bit of her finger, I am sure if you watched her you would say she was coping fine
- but just because she is coping fine would you then go on to say all babies should have the same amputation just incase they hurt themselves?

and I am sorry but if the dog needs to be mutilated to do the dog it is bred for then it is not fit for function - perhaps more thought should go into breeding a correct tail
My dogs are as low to the ground as spanials, they charge in undergrowth and have no problems with their tails - the only once there has been a problem Ben got caught on some barbed wire - but natural undergrowth has never caused him problems
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Jackie
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11-03-2011, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by magpye View Post
Not trying to get into a lengthy debate on the whys and why nots of tail docking in general.

But why and how are so many of the gundogs in crufts today docked when I thought the practice was being frowned on in showing circles and is certainly illegal in this country?
No its not frowned upon at all, and docking is not tottaly illegal in this country,

The reason you have seen so many gun dogs (along with other traditionally docked breeds) at Crufts is because they will have been docked before the new docking law came into play (April 07) there are no rules to exclude these dogs from te show ring.

Incidentally I heard today that the ban on showing legally docked (after 07) dogs at Crufts will be lifted next year, did any of you see the people with the green t-shirts saying "docked and denied" well done to them, it seems their campaign has finally been heard..such a stupid thought out law in the first place, afte all those "fit for function2 duel purpose dogs will now be able to compete against their counterparts int he ring, and show they are exactly that , fit for function.

Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Amazing how naturally bobbed breeds dont have any problem with balance and communication isnt it?
Isnt it just , It always amazes me when people shout, a dog cant do this or that or communicate when its docked . the flaw being the dogs themselves have not read the book, and blissfully carry on beign dogs doing all the same doggy things as those with full tails.
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ClaireandDaisy
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11-03-2011, 04:18 PM
Why do English pointers have tails when German Pointers are docked?
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labradork
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11-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why do English pointers have tails when German Pointers are docked?
English Pointers are not HPR's, therefore they perform a very different role (ie; they don't do the hunting and retrieving part!) to the GSP's who are of course a HPR breed.
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kobi
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11-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by EnR View Post
You could have done what I did and ask for one puppy to be left undocked. It would mean the breeder having to choose your puppy before 3 days old, though. I do wonder if I'd just gone to any breeder and given in to the docking I would have got an easier one.
I never thought of other litters.
This litter was docked and I'm not against working dogs being docked.
I think the balance of the law allows both camps to go their own ways and need not cross if they do not wish to.

Using the amputation argument, I agree we dont choose to amputate our limbs but we don't call it cruel when it has to be done and most people recover.

Yes i have heard of the phantom pain sensations.
P.S I don't take this argument lightly, my father lost his leg to Diabetes
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Wozzy
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11-03-2011, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why do English pointers have tails when German Pointers are docked?
They dont work cover generally, they work grouse moors where there is nothing to injure a tail on.

The BOB winner for the GWP (which I believe somebody mentioned earlier) is an import into the Bareve kennel. Sharon has much success in the show ring and it's a big part of her kennel, along with working her dogs. She has true dual purpose dogs and so now leaves their tails on so she can continue to show successfully.

I prefer a dock and dont think a lack of tail affects communication or balance/agility.
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Tassle
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11-03-2011, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
oops am back agreeing with you

as for personal opinion, given a choice i wouldn't have a springer with a full tail, i personally have seen too many that have had to have tails amputated or have spent their lives with sore tails
I have known dogs who had to have tails amputated as well...

Great Danes, Labs and Setters. I often wondered why these dogs were not docked when they often gain injury's on the tail. It never really made sense to me - one breed is docked for preventative reasons, but not another.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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11-03-2011, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
I have known dogs who had to have tails amputated as well...

Great Danes, Labs and Setters. I often wondered why these dogs were not docked when they often gain injury's on the tail. It never really made sense to me - one breed is docked for preventative reasons, but not another.
Yes the most often pet dog with tail problems I have seen have been labs who wag them against things
But we dont dock labs
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