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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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13-07-2010, 09:40 PM

Presentation......

Just recently I've been checking the show results and critiques for English Springers and have come across some judges complaining about the poor of presentation of some dogs. One judge going so far as to say that had the presentation been better on some exhibits, then they would've got better placings.

Now, I know presentation is important - entering isn't cheap, so you want the dog and yourself to look your best. That said, is it right to put so much emphasis on appearance. Surely health, conformation and breed type is more important?

For me, if I was judging and found I had two dogs that were very similar but one wasn't as nicely presented I wouldn't automatically go for the one that was better presented. I'd look at the faults on each dog and mark them accordingly. Surely half the reason the show type Springer has become so hairy, for want of a better word, and over coiffured is because of peoples obsession with presentation?

Opinions please.

Nb: Oh and please try and avoid being overly disrespectful to those of us who show. I love to show my dogs, but don't necessarily agree with everything that goes on, however this thread isn't about calling dog shows/show'ers names etc.
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DevilDogz
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13-07-2010, 09:49 PM
But presentation Isnt just how well the dog is groomed and how well dressed you are, Its about how well the dog Is moved and stacked. If you dont move the dog, or stack the dog to the best of yours and the dogs ability, then you havent presented It the best you could (In that sense), so the judge isnt getting a true idea.

I guess It can be very hard to judge a dog that Isnt moving/standing well to one that Is, Even If the one that Isnt Is the better example of the breed, In other areas.

I think presentaion In all aspects Is just as important.
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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13-07-2010, 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
But presentation isnt just how well the dog is groomed and how well dressed you are, Its about how well the dog is moved and stacked. If you dont move the dog, or stack the dog to the best of yours and the dogs ability, then you have presented it the best you could (In that sense), so the judge isnt getting a true idea.

I think presentaion Is just as important.
Sorry, just to clarify this judge was specifically talking about coat presentation.
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DevilDogz
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13-07-2010, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
Sorry, just to clarify this judge was specifically talking about coat presentation.
Ahh now that Is abit silly, and I would have to agree with you, about not choosing a dog over another just because of how well groomed It was! (Of course not including a dog that was a complete mess - I'ld ask them to leave the ring)!
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Tassle
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13-07-2010, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
Ahh now that Is abit silly, and I would have to agree with you, about not choosing a dog over another just because of how well groomed It was! (Of course not including a dog that was a complete mess - I'ld ask them to leave the ring)!
Out of interest - where do you draw that line?

Is it Ok for the dog to have some burrs in its coat?
Or some Mud on the legs, or some tangles behind the ears?
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DevilDogz
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13-07-2010, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Out of interest - where do you draw that line?

Is it Ok for the dog to have some burrs in its coat?
Or some Mud on the legs, or some tangles behind the ears?
If some one entered the ring and you could tell that the dog had not been brushed, leaving matts behind the ears ect, then I would ask the handler to take the dog out the ring, not just because of presentaion but also because of the dogs welfare. Abit of mud or something like that, abit of messy hair can be forgiven. But when you can tell a dog hasnt had adequate grooming then I would be concerned for the dogs sake, and not perpared to judge It.

But I can honestly say I have never seen a dog enter the ring with tangles, mud or anything else. Maybe abit of a shaggy coat - but their dogs
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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13-07-2010, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
Ahh now that Is abit silly, and I would have to agree with you, about not choosing a dog over another just because of how well groomed It was! (Of course not including a dog that was a complete mess - I'ld ask them to leave the ring)!
Isn't it just. I even read one judge in the dog papers complaining about how exhibitors trim the dogs ears???? Talk about picky!

I do agree with presentation as a whole being important and those that put in a lot of effort are bound to get noticed and more likely to be pulled out. What concerns me is some judges obsession with "looks", it's what has changed the English Springer from this...

1970's


to this....



To be fair to many in the breed though, this is now changing thankfully. More and more of the dogs in the ring these days don't look like this, they do have less coat. I do wonder, though, if it's down to breeding the trait out or cutting the coat off?
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DevilDogz
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13-07-2010, 10:44 PM
I actually perfere the first dog I see what your saying though, Judges do have a massive play In how exhibitors present their dogs.

Judge complaining about how the ears are trimmed Jeez that Is over the top.

Hmmm thats a really good point, I do wonder If It Is Indeed being trimmed off!
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Ripsnorterthe2nd
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13-07-2010, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by DevilDogz View Post
I actually perfere the first dog I see what your saying though, Judges do have a massive play In how exhibitors present their dogs.

Judge complaining about how the ears are trimmed Jeez that Is over the top.

Hmmm thats a really good point, I do wonder If It Is Indeed being trimmed off!
Yes! And so you should, that's my point! The breed standard states "moderately feathered". Which one do you think fits that description best?!

I think it may be being trimmed off (but then many working ESS people do the same), I wonder how long it would realistically take to breed out something like excessive coat?

Someone was judging an open show and put at the beginning of the critique that exhibitors should mind how far up they trim the dogs ears! Some people just like to get on their soap box me thinks.
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DevilDogz
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13-07-2010, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
Yes! And so you should, that's my point! The breed standard states "moderately feathered". Which one do you think fits that description best?!

I think it may be being trimmed off (but then many working ESS people do the same), I wonder how long it would realistically take to breed out something like excessive coat?

Someone was judging an open show and put at the beginning of the critique that exhibitors should mind how far up they trim the dogs ears! Some people just like to get on their soap box me thinks.
Moderately feathered defo isnt the second pic! lol
I think It would take ages and be quite a hard thing to breed out!!. So I would defo agree that Its more than likely being trimmed off.

at an open show thats bad, Just because she didnt like how the ears were trimmed didnt mean It was wrong, or that others judges wouldnt like It! Some people ay!
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