|
Location: Manchester
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,900
|
10-01-2009, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox 
So if the deformity was so minor , why would you want money knocked of the price you had already paid!!
Surely if the pup is healthy and you love her just as much as before the deformity was noticed.. and no medical costs where likely in the future , I am at a loss to see why you would be after a discount.
And maybe that is why the breeder was they way she was with you.
I understand you informing the breeder of the condition.. as any good breeder would wish to know of any health issues cropping up in their dogs...
And I also understand the breeder offering to take the pup back, so she /he can asses the severity of the illness.
We don't know how bad it is or was ,and maybe the breeder felt the deformity was going to interfere with the dogs quality of life.. hence her saying she would have it PTS.
I dont know , just playing devils advovote here.
And to be honest, if I was a breeder and I received a concern from a puppy buyer , asking for a discount in their first conversation, I also would want to get my hands back on said pup.
So I dont understand why you say this breeder is not reputable , when she has offerd 1) another pup, 2) to take the pup back... and I am guessing she suggested having the dog pts, on the face of your phone call.. and untill she saw the pup for herself , maybe she would realise that the deformity was not as bad as you first suggested.
There are good and bad breders in all breeds..it is not exculsive to RR..
If as you say , all she was interested in was her repution, then she is not the sort of breeder one would consider ethical.
But if she was concerned for the welfare of the dog , I would say she acted responible..
Totally agree with this post, and unless the dog was bought for showing? a longer LIP on one side seems a very trivial thing to be requesting money back for?
Mo
|
|
Location: grangemouth for the moment
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,890
|
10-01-2009, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox
So if the deformity was so minor , why would you want money knocked of the price you had already paid!!
Surely if the pup is healthy and you love her just as much as before the deformity was noticed.. and no medical costs where likely in the future , I am at a loss to see why you would be after a discount.
And maybe that is why the breeder was they way she was with you.
I understand you informing the breeder of the condition.. as any good breeder would wish to know of any health issues cropping up in their dogs...
And I also understand the breeder offering to take the pup back, so she /he can asses the severity of the illness.
We don't know how bad it is or was ,and maybe the breeder felt the deformity was going to interfere with the dogs quality of life.. hence her saying she would have it PTS.
I dont know , just playing devils advovote here.
And to be honest, if I was a breeder and I received a concern from a puppy buyer , asking for a discount in their first conversation, I also would want to get my hands back on said pup.
So I dont understand why you say this breeder is not reputable , when she has offerd 1) another pup, 2) to take the pup back... and I am guessing she suggested having the dog pts, on the face of your phone call.. and untill she saw the pup for herself , maybe she would realise that the deformity was not as bad as you first suggested.
There are good and bad breders in all breeds..it is not exculsive to RR..
If as you say , all she was interested in was her repution, then she is not the sort of breeder one would consider ethical.
But if she was concerned for the welfare of the dog , I would say she acted responible..
I could see the point if it had been a problem with the growth plates and the dog may have had problems in the future,
I would say a slightly longer lip is a bit more cosmetic issue than a deformity I would think of a deformity as something far more serious
|
|
|
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 4,859
|
11-01-2009, 01:00 AM
) I bought my firsyt Welshie Morgan as a pet and when he died we decided to have a go at showing, Spence hated it (he loves the caravanning and the shwoing off in the ring at shows outside but hates most of the judges)Any one who thinks showing easy hold think of the following stastics:
Champ show per dog per class (average) £22.00
Petrol (average) £30.00
Catalogue £4.00
(Excluding the price of paying someone to look after my dogs who have retired and food)
Total £56.00
Winner prize money £0
Than times by at least 20
Do the maths folks, showing must be one of the most expensive hobbies going at the moment
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
11-01-2009, 12:57 PM
I have nothing against the majority of people who show and a hobby, if they are doing it because their dogs love it then yes I can see it is a great was to socialise and interact with there dogs.
Yes SHOWING is expensive - the people that are being complained about are the ones who use a dog who did good in the ring as a reason to churn out endless pups and charge a big price for them
My problems with showing
Many of the breeds shown IMO are overweight, some positivly waddle round the ring. now as this is what people who show are used to seeing they dont even notice, but comapire a working or agility lab to a show lab and you can see there is deff a lack of muscles there
Based on a judges preference over time the look of a breed changes - causing health problems to the breed
Cos of course people want to win so the dogs are bred towards that extreame
which means the dogs of a breed become horribly uniform - looking like they were all stamped out of the same mold - do the markings have to be exactly the same to sucessfully work sheep, guard property, chase prey, or any of the jobs the dogs were designed for?
Working ability can be lost when dogs are bred for looks not ability and temprament
Many dogs enjoy it - but why is visible signs of enjoyment and friendlyness - such as a gay tail or licking judges - something seen as a fault that has to be trained out?
some winning dogs are bred far too often restricting the gene pool
and, as was shown on the crufts show itself - there are people at the top who dont exercise their dogs (shelty lady who said their play had to be restricted as she wanted all the neutrition to go into their coat) There are people with sheds full of crates of dogs
Of course these dogs work well for the handler - that is the only attention they get and as dogs have an inbuilt desire to please their human they are desperate for that bit of attention they get when going to a show
In the main the hobby of an individual with a pet is probally a good thing - and a better life than some pets will get
The commercial aspect with people overbreeding dogs kept in cramped conditions solely for their next win is IMO not good
and the long term effect of showing on many of the breeds is a huge problem
Of course there is good and bad in anything, and yes before anyone says I am sure there are horrible agility kennels too - but thankfully most people realise that a rescue dog can make as good (if not better) an agility dog than a purpose bred agility dog
|
|
|
|
Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
|
11-01-2009, 01:55 PM
Many of the breeds shown IMO are overweight, some positivly waddle round the ring. now as this is what people who show are used to seeing they dont even notice, but comapire a working or agility lab to a show lab and you can see there is deff a lack of muscles there
Cos of course people want to win so the dogs are bred towards that extreame
which means the dogs of a breed become horribly uniform - looking like they were all stamped out of the same mold - do the markings have to be exactly the same to sucessfully work sheep, guard property, chase prey, or any of the jobs the dogs were designed for?
Many dogs enjoy it - but why is visible signs of enjoyment and friendlyness - such as a gay tail or licking judges - something seen as a fault that has to be trained out?
A gay tail is not a sign of friendlines, its a fault in many breeds and should be BRED out! My dogs have mugged the judge on numerous occasions, I and all those that I am familiar with have never said anything uncomplimentary about it, why should they? enjoyment is the name of the game.
|
|
|
Location: West sussex
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,464
|
11-01-2009, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
.I think you will find that most if not all of the large serious agility dogs are specifically bred, a few of the smaller dogs may be rescues.
yes some dogs are bred for agility-how is that different to breeding to show?
|
|
|
|
Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
|
11-01-2009, 02:30 PM
Originally Posted by gsdmad
i dont for one moment think that the majority of show dogs have a lovely time and life both in the ring and out of it.id just like to clarify that before i start.
can you show me some evidence for this? cause i dont belivie it to be true.
yes some dogs are bred for agility-how is that different to breeding to show?
Re your first paragraph, thats how I see agility dogs. I see hyped up manic hysterical dogs, totally alien to what their normal temperament would be, i dont like seeing that at all, its not nice.
|
|
|
Location: Rugby, Wawicksire
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 294
|
11-01-2009, 03:01 PM
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
11-01-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
I think thats a ridiculous statement, which was the last show ou went to and witnessed this? The last show I saw a fat dog at was a companion show and the dog was a VERY overweight PET Border Collie!
I havent been to show, I am talking about the shows I have seen on TV and the dogs I have met in the real world and got my hands on. As I said - its my oppinion the dogs in many of the breeds are overweight
By the looks of it on film this is far worse in america
Thats not true either, many show dogs are NEVER bred from!
Yes, true - I said not all are bred from, I wasnt talking about everyone who ever shows dogs, but there are lots of breeders out there breeding and charging more money BECAUSE there dog has been to crufts or something
Very contradictory statement! Dogs that are being showed are showed FOR their perfection in conformation and movemet according to the breed standard. Working dogs are bred for the PHYSICAL ability alone, totally different. Dogs should still be able to do the job they were bred for conformationally, I agree with that, but showing is a beauty competition and nothing more.
yes, but my problem is the beauty is what is being bred for in the next generation of show dogs, it is considered more important than the ability. as beauty is in the eyes of the judge it means that the conformation of the dogs instead of making them more healthy is causing problems
Firstly no, an inherant characteristic is always there, like Border Terriers, mostly bred as pets now and show but still work given the opportunity.
I dont know about border terriers but I dont know of any serious farmers who would buy a show bred collie
A gay tail is not a sign of friendlines, its a fault in many breeds and should be BRED out! My dogs have mugged the judge on numerous occasions, I and all those that I am familiar with have never said anything uncomplimentary about it, why should they? enjoyment is the name of the game.
I mean by a gay tail the way SOME breeds hold their tails when they are HAPPY, like collies, plenty of them have nothing wrong with their tails, the angle they hold them at is more indicative with their moods than anything, but the judges want to see the tails down so the dogs have to be trained to do that
Can you show me proof of this in a pedigree dog exhibited in this country please.
I dont have proof in my hands but we all saw the woman on the BBC documentry whos winning, ill cavaller was bred many many times. I know in my street some people have bought dogs from what they consider 'good breeders' cos her stud went to crufts, but I know for a fact that both the bitches had 2 litters to that dog in 6 months - so the pedigrees must be wrong, and there is a poor little rescue who was shown till she was 2, bred from every season till she was no more use and then handed in to rescue
Like I say - not every person who shows is like this - but there are some
I think you will find that most if not all of the large serious agility dogs are specifically bred, a few of the smaller dogs may be rescues.
I do totaly agree with you that some sport bred collies are a bit OTT and I cannot really talk about England, but I do know lots of people in top level agility in Scotland and although they might have a sport dog from a particular kennel then also have a couple of rescues who are doing as well as the sport bred dogs
I do think its a total shame that the large collies get most of the tv coverage on agility, it does not show the sport at its best, and some collies are too hyper looking, but thats because they are reactive hyper collies who NEED a job - I can only imagine what they would be like if they didnt have a home with someone willing to work them in something like agility
|
|
|
|
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
|
11-01-2009, 03:08 PM
check out http://www.freewebs.com/darleague/ The dogs agility rescue league, its just not always mentioned that the dog is a rescue
There is from the 1st page the rescue dogs on that site from Olympia 2008
2nd place - Final
Anna Burton & Dana's Tiger Lily
3rd place - Final
Leah Gardner & Chaffords Herbal Illusion
Ian Dobison & Ag Ch Call me Mr T
1st Pairs
Natalie Silcock & Kiros of Final Fantasy
4th ABC
|
|