Meg , thanks for the info about the SA research . I did see the programme and Emily gave very good advice on how to teach your dog to cope alone.

John Bradshaw is at bristol Uni too and has spend many years researching cats and dogs and I have a learnt a lot from him.

its the amount of time a dog is kept in a crate that is the abuse, crates are not meant to contain a dog for hrs and hrs on end............8 to 10 hrs a day is abuse, it may not be the worse kind of abuse, but its still abuse!!

i know a lot of breeders who will not place a pup in a home where the people are going to be out of the house for up to 8 (or more ) hrs a day, so in that situation it is the "only way" , I live in the real world, and my belief is that is you are out of the house ALL day and crate a dog for 8/10 hrs a day, then you should not own a dog... this is no life for any animal to be crated in a small space without any form of human interaction for that many hrs a day........ ask yourself what it would be like to be locked in a small room, where you can only stand up and turn around for 10 hrs a day.... you would go stir crazy before long, yet for some people they think its acceptable to do it to their dogs!

One thing that doesn't even seem to have been considered by the new owner is that the dog may not be able to be crated. One of my girls, Lona, has a pink fit if she's put in a crate and the door shut, she'll go in (after a lot of persuading and coaxing) but shut the door and she goes crackers. When she has had puppies and everyone's been cleaned up, I put the puppies in a crate with hot water bottles, vet bed etc. She looks at me like I have run mad, she will go in with them, and for the first 48 hours she tends to stay with them, after that she'll feed them, then come out and lie next to the crate. Once I made the mistake of shutting the door of the crate whilst I mopped the floor, and went into another room and didn't open the door for her, and there was this horrendous noise, she was digging up the floor of the crate, bedding and puppies were flying everywhere, they were screeching, she was so distressed by this, and we're talking a matter of minutes here. Took me ages to calm her down and soothe the puppies and it taught me a big lesson that no matter what she would never be able to be shut in a crate. I doubt she is the only dog on the entire planet that feels like this, there must be more of them, if this rescue dog also does not like being confined like this, and we're talking many hours here not a few minutes, what happens then. I never ever sell my puppies to people where there isn't going to be someone home for the greater part of the day, some go to work with one of their family, some are dropped off at nana's along with the kids, some go in doggie day care, but none are left for hours on end, asking for trouble in my opinion

June some dogs react very badly to a crate particularly if they have not been habituated to one. You are of course removing the option of a 'flight' response if a dog feels threatened when it is crated with a closed door.
I would guess that is the reason for Lona's reaction.

It is also a natural instinct for a dog to soil away from its place of sleep/bed.
We all know dogs can become ill quite quickly with diarrhea/vomiting.
It is horrible to think of a dog forced to lay in its own mess for hours because it is locked in a crate.

All of them have been used to crates, but Lona isn't having any of it at all, and I would never put her in that situation knowing what she is like, if she won't even stay in one with her puppies, then she isn't going to stay in one at all. The reason why I never spayed her like I did Cariad was because the vets don't have any other option than a crate after the op, and I can't put her through that unless it is a life threatening situation, and thank goodness that hasn't happened, and I pray it never does because she'd rip herself apart

DD I have a lot of time for Casey,Blackwell and Bradshaw at Bristol all of whom have done a considerable amount to further our understanding of canine behaviour .

In the UK, we do not separate neglect from physical abuse when it comes to legally defining animal cruelty. Neglect is as punishable by law as physical abuse is. Legally, when you take on an animal, you are bound by law to ensure its needs are met, and that includes the animal 'be allowed to express itself and behave normally'. If you do something that stops that animal behaving normally you are guilty of animal cruelty, so you see, legally, I'm not being 'silly' or 'dramatic' or 'over-reacting'.

Just because the US doesn't have this same law, it doesn't make it acceptable that someone takes on a pet with the full intention of subjecting it to such a miserable life it will more than likely develop behavioural problems.

Didn't you just do exactly that - make an excuse, by suggesting neglect isn't all that bad?

I know physical abuse goes on, of course, but it doesn't mean that what the OP intends to do to this dog isn't bad - it IS!

This dog is highly likely to become extremely distressed by the OPs planned regime, and develop all manner of behavioural issues - howling, barking, spinning, digging at the base of the crate, chewing at himself until he's raw, going crazy when he's let out, zooming around the walls etc, maybe even growling and attacking people.

It's like saying, What's worse - locking a man in windowless dungeon by himself until he goes mad, or beating him until he's bloody?

I have a far better understanding of cruelty than you do, in that case!

To me, YOU are trivialising the nature of willful neglect of a dog.

If the OP had listened to advice and chosen a smaller, quieter, older dog, we would not be having this discussion . . Isn't it a tragedy that we are?

I had no intention of posting here again, but as I've been addressed, I will. Just because you consider neglect and abuse the same, doesn't mean it is. And just because you think something is neglect or abuse, doesn't mean it is. I never said nor suggested that neglect "isn't all that bad", but then again, something not being "all that bad" really holds no meaning as a statement, anyway.

The plans for the dog are not ideal, but that doesn't mean that the dog is guaranteed to fare very badly. Moreover, the dog won't be locked in a crate 24/7. Additionally, dogs seem to often like crates, whereas I know nobody who'd ever enjoy being in a cage barely large enough to stand in, for any length of time, so the analogies that use human vs. dog as examples really are not accurate IMO.

Moving along, it's true that the dog may develop behavioral problems due to his keep, but perhaps if that happens, the owner will work out a better schedule and help rectify things. It's also true that the dog may settle in just fine. You don't know what the dog had gotten used to before this adoption, and like marley 123 said, dogs in shelters are caged the majority of the day, anyway.

I stand by my statements, the plans for the dog are not ideal, but they are not abuse. The ifs of what could (and probably should) have happened are no longer relevant. The key now is trying to help smooth the introduction of the dog. If you're only going to call it abuse and if you've "washed your hand of" the OP, then I don't even get your motives, anymore.

Oh, and just so you know, I find saying you "wash your hands of" another person who you don't know extremely rude, offensive, and condescending. Since you claimed I insulted you, I believe you insulted the OP.

So...any further advice for the OP?