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MerlinsMum
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01-08-2010, 09:24 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Height of web presence, means I'm only on forums and email, not websited so hard to google me.
It's enough that you are on the ones that you are. Continually promoting the same things over and over and over again, getting the same old same old from very many people who read your posts, and they aren't all the same people.

One can have a website, never promote it, and not be on any forums at all. So that doesn't hold water in the sense of a web presence, I'm afraid. One person on many forums can be more influential than a website, which maybe explains your approach.

Why don't you have a website, by the way? It's easy to make one, or cheap to have someone do it for you, and these days most people with their own business have one, it's a big part of promotion.
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BamBam
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02-08-2010, 01:34 AM
Hi all

I am new here and reading this thread I thought I would give my views

I too use an ecollar, always have done. I have also trained by using various other methods but for me by far the ecollar is the easiest. And to the chap that said the dog runs for cover when the collar comes out far from it. How many ecollar trained dogs have you witnessed doing this, or was it just hot air? It is just the same as many dog owners when the lead comes out, he knows he is going out and is very happy.

I have never ever needed to stim the dog on a high level, it is counter productive, and test the collar every day I use it on the level I use for the dog. I test to see it isnt malfunctioning. Puts a stop to the "try it on yourself" brigade.

What I normally find is those people who knock it have never tried it. You can abuse a dog with any lead or impliment and normally one doesnt go out of their way spending 300 to go and abuse a dog with such a tool. You will now say that us ecollar users all say the same thing, something that Adam on here was accused of, but in my experience the anti ecollar brigade normally come out with the same old arguments too. I dont see how an ecollar can be said to be more abusive than an halti rubbing the dogs head, or a slip chain or a dog choking at the end of a nylon lead, or withholding a treat.

I have also used prong collars, as well as all other collars and harnesses and found them to be excellent too. They dont pull on them as they do on leather colars that hurt their throat.

I have a very happy loving dog who loves going out with his collar on. Not appeasment, dogs don't do that. You really think that dogs premeditate moods? Do you really think they see the ecollar and think to themselves "got to look like I like this or else" Oh Please!. I would love to know how one poster thinks a dog fakes excitement and calmness? So when mine is excited when he goes out with his collar on what he really means is he is in avoidance and appeasment. Really. If you think that and you think a dog premeditates that perhaps you're not the best person to own a dog.

And it is funny though that the ones against the ecollar are the only ones here being abusive to the ecollar user. This is quite normal though. Those whos arguments hold no water generally resort to insults etc. I see some posters on here from Dog Chat who have had their arguments and critisisms shattered by Lou Castle over there.

It is a pity ignorance isnt banned.

Phoebe
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Crysania
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02-08-2010, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by BamBam View Post

It is a pity ignorance isnt banned.
I agree Phoebe. *smiles sweetly* Ignorance most assuredly should be banned.
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BamBam
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02-08-2010, 02:04 AM
Then half the posters on here wouldn't be here would there "smiles sweetly back"
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Crysania
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02-08-2010, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by BamBam View Post
Then half the posters on here wouldn't be here would there "smiles sweetly back"
Not half. Just a few. I have only seen a small handful of truly ignorant people here. Looks like you've just come here to stir up trouble. What, Adam couldn't handle it himself? Maybe if we shock...or sorry...STIM you it would make you do what we want you to do? And you'd be happy to be shocked...I mean STIMMED, of course. Because electrical shocks are an awesome happy feeling!!! And the dogs LOVE it! lol

Some folks need to drop their ignorance and get with the 21st century.
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BamBam
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02-08-2010, 02:19 AM
You're not looking hard enough are you dear.

And some people need to realise that ecollar training isnt all about high levels of stim. Just like withholding a treat or yanking on a halti.

Stir up trouble? How? What have I said that has made you decide that? I merely pointed out that I use one and that others have been rude to the one poster with a differing view. But judging from this thread anyone with a different view to yours is fair game, you solely have proved that. Hey guys look an ECOLLAR user, lets get her

Maybe a shock would, just like a yank or treat would.
Oh here we go the old SHOCK oh I mean STIM lines. Nothing new this week? YAWN BOOOORING

They love it like a halti pulling on their neck, or a withheld treat, or a yank on the lead, or a rattle bottle or a ...and we go on.

21st Century LOL, CLICK
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Crysania
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02-08-2010, 02:32 AM
Oh let's see...new member comes on and calls people ignorant. Noooo not here to stir up trouble at all!

I don't yank on any collar or halti or anything. Never have. Never needed to. I also don't withhold treats. Your constant harping on that shows very little understanding of what positive reinforcement is.

The idea that a shock collar just tickles or vibrates or whatever is something erroneous that ecollar sellers and trainers have been constantly tossing around. That doesn't even make sense. "It's like a tap on the shoulder." Really? Because a "tap on the shoulder" is going to stop a dog from chasing a squirrel? Stop a dog from aggressing or reacting? No. It's not. It requires something that will shock them out of it and stop them in their tracks. This is significantly more than just a tickle.

I've seen the levels many people train at. I've FELT the level some people train at. I've had someone put it on my neck and shock me when I'm not expecting it at the same "low level" they put it on their dog. It hurt. It was not a tickle. It HURT plain and simple. I watched their dog react to it, with his tail coming between his legs and his ears flying back. I've never EVER seen my dog react to anything I do in training that way. The time I've seen her react like that dog did were when she heard a rumble of thunder: she, like the dog that was being trained using an ecollar, was showing fear.

I watched one trainer demonstrate to me how to train a dog with reactivity issues (my dog came to me with such issues). Watching the dog time after time, I saw it getting worse, not better. The dog in question was pretty clearly associating the shock with the other dog. And not the way the trainer wanted (dog = shock = stop reacting) but rather dog = shock = bad thing happening must get other dog as it's clearly the cause.

Recently I saw a dog at an off leash area. The person was explaining to me that they had had the dog for two years and he was still scared of humans and wouldn't go anywhere near them. I thought wow, two years? They said they'd been working on his fear for TWO YEARS. I couldn't understand it. The dog was ok with other dogs, but with people? He was in complete avoidance. He would do anything to stay away from another person. I thought it was the weirdest reaction I've ever seen. How he would be near me, suddenly see me and then dart away like he was scared I was going to hit him, even if I weren't looking directly at him. And then one time I realized he was wearing two collars. And a little while later I saw that little shock box on one of them. I asked about it and they said they had been working with a trainer for most of those two years who used ecollars. No wonder the dog was still afraid of humans. When he saw me, I'm sure he thought the shock was coming next.

After seeing how ecollars worked, after feeling the shock myself, and after a lot of research, I found much better methods of training. Both my dog and I are happier for it. I wish that others would do a bit of research and learn new techniques and more humane ways of training. I do not seek to instill fear in my dog. I want to build her up, not tear her down. And frankly, I think I've done a damned good job of it.

So you can take your "ignorance" and shove it. Ignorant is one thing I, and many others here, are not.
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mishflynn
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02-08-2010, 05:25 AM
Bambam.... Yawn , they are ILLEGAL in wales. Deal with it!
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ClaireandDaisy
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02-08-2010, 07:17 AM
I`m running out of room on my Ignore list ....
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Jackie
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02-08-2010, 07:44 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Ponderosa are gundog trainers, I agree the term they used was stupid but the training doesn't refer to a dog running from, an e collar ect but describes training the dog not to bolt out of training/working when it feels like it. Its kinda a usa gundog term.

Re the sheepdogs, no experience of training them but my e collar mantra is always show the dog how to turn the stim off. In other words don't just put it on command and stim show the dog how to stop the stim. With the dog who wouldn't stop you would initialy train the command with the dog on lead beside you, guiding the dog while stimming, you would then do it with the dog on a longer lead so you can influence its response. After lots of repitition you would remove the line.
I know you have to be careful of lines around the sheep ect, but using a circlur pen means the dog wouldn't tangle the sheep, also you have to stop him quick.
E;g send 10 feet then stop. Gradually increase.
As I say no experience of sheepdogs but thats how I would approach it as an e collar user.

Re little dog, I'm not directly punishing the aggression, I'm using incompatible behaviours (e collar) and counter conditioning (food and e collar).

Re e collar walk. What do you mean.
Is the dog walking at the handlers pace with its head up and hindquaters low? I have a clients dog that does this, never been e collar trained though, is very food orientated and was tuaght to walk to heel with food.

Cad
I came on forums in light of wales ban.
Re study, note use of the term possibly.
Also 5 dogs, out of several 1000s contained behind e fences in the usa.

Height of web presence, means I'm only on forums and email, not websited so hard to google me.

Adam

you are on enough forums Adam, for others to get to know all they need to about you.

All you have to do is Goggle your name, and hey presto, there you are , whats also evident is the minority of supporters you have!


Originally Posted by BamBam View Post
Hi all

I am new here and reading this thread I thought I would give my views

I too use an ecollar, always have done. I have also trained by using various other methods but for me by far the ecollar is the easiest.

Out of the mouths of babes the true reason yo uuse the e.collar is because its easier to get results!!


And to the chap that said the dog runs for cover when the collar comes out far from it. How many ecollar trained dogs have you witnessed doing this, or was it just hot air? It is just the same as many dog owners when the lead comes out, he knows he is going out and is very happy.

I have never ever needed to stim the dog on a high level, it is counter productive, and test the collar every day I use it on the level I use for the dog. I test to see it isnt malfunctioning. Puts a stop to the "try it on yourself" brigade.

What I normally find is those people who knock it have never tried it. You can abuse a dog with any lead or impliment and normally one doesnt go out of their way spending 300 to go and abuse a dog with such a tool. You will now say that us ecollar users all say the same thing, something that Adam on here was accused of, but in my experience the anti ecollar brigade normally come out with the same old arguments too. I dont see how an ecollar can be said to be more abusive than an halti rubbing the dogs head, or a slip chain or a dog choking at the end of a nylon lead, or withholding a treat.

I have also used prong collars, as well as all other collars and harnesses and found them to be excellent too. They dont pull on them as they do on leather colars that hurt their throat.

I have a very happy loving dog who loves going out with his collar on. Not appeasment, dogs don't do that. You really think that dogs premeditate moods? Do you really think they see the ecollar and think to themselves "got to look like I like this or else" Oh Please!. I would love to know how one poster thinks a dog fakes excitement and calmness? So when mine is excited when he goes out with his collar on what he really means is he is in avoidance and appeasment. Really. If you think that and you think a dog premeditates that perhaps you're not the best person to own a dog.

And it is funny though that the ones against the ecollar are the only ones here being abusive to the ecollar user. This is quite normal though. Those whos arguments hold no water generally resort to insults etc. I see some posters on here from Dog Chat who have had their arguments and critisisms shattered by Lou Castle over there.

It is a pity ignorance isnt banned.

Phoebe
Your right there , ignorance is not always bliss, it can be down right dangerous

Now call me suspicious, but it seems ADAM has had to call in back up.

Funny you should just find this site and go straight to this thread,

Get the soup on , we have a troll in our mist!!
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