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Wysiwyg
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01-08-2010, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
yes it would.
Surely E collar trainers are savvy enough to tell the difference?

.......oh well perhaps not or they would be savvy enough not to need them..


One ecollar video showing a bouncing happy labrador had one bit in it where the dog was doing a stiff, "e collar walk" as I call it.

After it was mentioned, hey presto, that particular bit was edited out and once again, the film was shown on Youtube and put forward by shock collar supporters, as hailing a happy, bouncy lab with a happy relationship with his owner.

So - make your own conclusions, but I suspect many of them do know, but prefer to lie and conceal the truth...
as what else could editing that particular few seconds out of that film be attributed to, but preference of hiding the reality?

Wys
x
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Lotsadogs
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01-08-2010, 07:54 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
"You can run, but you can't hide" - so sad.


x
Yes terribly terribly sad indeed! Makes you wonder what Type of pleasure can be had from training any dog in such a way.

I really hope that most people have the sense and level of feeling to see what the dog is trying to make them see and move away from such unnecessary methods.
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Jackie
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01-08-2010, 08:33 AM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum View Post
He can't.... it doesn't exist.

As usual he's blowing stims out of his own posterior.
Whats worse, he believes his own propaganda... and is probably convincing enough to persuade nave dog owners, who have no idea of the truth, to pay money for his services.
Who was it earlier who described him as "dangerous"?
Have said that on many an occasion, the boy is dangerous, be it out of his own blissful ignorance or a closet masochist I am not sure, but sadly the end results is always the same, that dogs are the recipient of his ego!

Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi Dm (sorry just easier lol)

My purpose is simple, if someone is reading this and feeling they need to use e collars ect I want them to feel its not a horrible thing and there is support out there for them.

With regards to my looking/not looking.
I believe I can read a dogs body language and behaviour fairly well, if not I'd get bitten alot more lol.
When using any (including reward) training I'm constantly checking the dogs emotional state, both to be nice to the dog and to facilate good training.
When e collar training I don't see any different body language than when using another method (including reward training).
Have you witnessed e collar training and seen body language you disagree with from the dog? For anyone btw.

Adam
Yes, have witnessed it in the flesh so to speak, it seems to me its very much a case of the "emperors clothes" one sees what one wants to see, (or dont see )

I recall a video put up by one of your mentors on DC, of a very naughty Lab, the owner had nto implemented any training in the dog , results a catch 22, dog is to naughty to walk, so it does not get walked, the situation goes on and on, uncle Denis comes to the rescue, with his e.collar and hey presto , the owner can now take it for a walk.

The footage of the dog while wearing the collar is desturbing , it plainly shows a tense dog walking to heel through fear, yet for the owner and the trainer they see a relaxed dog walking to heel,

A bit like those shouting at the emperor , he is walking around naked, while the emperor and his Taylor are seeing the fine suit of clothes.




Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I didn't know e collars were popular for wsd. I can't argue with your claims of course but my experience of wsd trainers is they can be fairly hard on the dog regardless of the methods used. Also did you see the actual e collar training or just the after effects, which could be caused by other training the dog experienced of course.
I've never seen such reactions in the dogs I've trained. I'm currently working with a little dog with big aggression issue's, To date I've used an e collar numerouse times on him. He show a positive response to the sight of the e collar. He also shows increased obedience and improvments in his behaviour, even when experiencing a stim he doesn't appear stressed in anyway (though its brief). Interestingly despite using an e collar based approach on him he is now alot calmer/happier around triggers.

To your second point, I think people come to forums sometimes read threads ect. That makes them think.
Btw this is the height of my web presence.

Adam
Is that the same as your experience with the amount of dogs being euthanized due to aggression

I wonder if sometimes we have a Walter Mitty here, as some of his statistics show a parallel of the "make beleive".

For someone of such a young age to have so much experience and so many clients , is amazing
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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01-08-2010, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
... makes me wonder whether this 'calmness and happiness' claimed is actually avoidance and appeasement.
yes - that is it exactly, I havr seen fawning dogs with stress grins slamming into poisitions to avoid the punishments - most often badly timed by the e collar expert so the dog is stressed and confused

AP you say every type of training involves some stress - and yes in a way you are right
but there is stress and there is stress

When I bring my clicker out my dogs become very happy, their tails are happily wagging the whole time they try and figure out what game we are doing together

they no that there is no 'wrong' and their fun behaviours make me laugh

Do e collar trained dogs show so much joy when their collar is strapped on??? 'Oh goody here is this thing that makes me feel so good when it goes away'
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ClaireandDaisy
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01-08-2010, 10:02 AM
Polsky study

Polsky discusses the effect of shock collar-based fencing on the behavior of dogs, citing incidents in which dogs exposed to this type of containment committed severe aggressive attacks on humans on or near the boundary of the fence system.(Polsky 2000) As suggested by other research, dogs may make inappropriate associations between shock and other experiences. In every incident, the dog was within the "shock zone" and all fences were working; the dogs must then have received a shock. Four of the five dogs were not subject to threatening behavior by the victims prior to the attack. None of the dogs gave any kind of warning prior to biting, and all bit their victims repeatedly and seriously in the head, face, back and neck.

The analysis suggests that the dogs' aggression was caused by the shock. There are several unknown factors to the cases, including the training used to introduce the dog to the fence, the amount of time the dog spent outside unsupervised, and what level of shock intensity the dogs received. However, the reaction of the dogs, and especially the severity of the attacks, was inconsistent with their past behavior. Polsky concluded a "possible interpretation in terms of unconditioned aggression as a result of a dog having received electronic shock and avoidance-motivated aggression mediated through fear reduction toward human stimuli."
[edit] Schalke et al. study
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ClaireandDaisy
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01-08-2010, 10:04 AM
To use shock as an effective dog training method you will need:

1. A thorough understanding of canine behavior.
2. A thorough understanding of learning theory.
3. Impeccable timing.

And if you have those three things, you don't need a shock collar. --Author unknown
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ClaireandDaisy
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01-08-2010, 10:09 AM
Re. the small dog with aggression issues:

Punishment is counter-productive when dealing with problems of reactivity or aggression. WHY

1. Punishment increases stress. Any increase in stress will generally tend to make the dog more rather than less aggressive.
2. Punishment can create a negative association in the dog's mind between the punishment and the object of the dog's fear/aggression.
3. By suppressing outward signs of reactivity without changing the underlying emotional state, punishment can produce a dog that strikes without warning.
4. It is very important for the dog to feel safe in the owner's presence.

from http://www.hollysden.com/say-no-to-shock-collars.htm

You are laying up a time bomb for these owners Adam. Through your own ignorance and venality you are teaching the dog about learned helplessness, and he will retaliate.
But probably long after you have banked your fee. So you probably don`t mind.
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Snorri the Priest
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01-08-2010, 03:24 PM
Don't beat about the bush, C & D, tell him what you REALLY mean!


Snorri
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ClaireandDaisy
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01-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Snorri the Priest View Post
Don't beat about the bush, C & D, tell him what you REALLY mean!


Snorri
I`ve never seen the point of prevarication Snorri.
BTW that`s nothing to some comments he gets on other forums - and yes, he`s all over them like rash. And they all started around the same time. When he got his sales job perhaps?
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Adam P
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01-08-2010, 08:46 PM
Ponderosa are gundog trainers, I agree the term they used was stupid but the training doesn't refer to a dog running from, an e collar ect but describes training the dog not to bolt out of training/working when it feels like it. Its kinda a usa gundog term.

Re the sheepdogs, no experience of training them but my e collar mantra is always show the dog how to turn the stim off. In other words don't just put it on command and stim show the dog how to stop the stim. With the dog who wouldn't stop you would initialy train the command with the dog on lead beside you, guiding the dog while stimming, you would then do it with the dog on a longer lead so you can influence its response. After lots of repitition you would remove the line.
I know you have to be careful of lines around the sheep ect, but using a circlur pen means the dog wouldn't tangle the sheep, also you have to stop him quick.
E;g send 10 feet then stop. Gradually increase.
As I say no experience of sheepdogs but thats how I would approach it as an e collar user.

Re little dog, I'm not directly punishing the aggression, I'm using incompatible behaviours (e collar) and counter conditioning (food and e collar).

Re e collar walk. What do you mean.
Is the dog walking at the handlers pace with its head up and hindquaters low? I have a clients dog that does this, never been e collar trained though, is very food orientated and was tuaght to walk to heel with food.

Cad
I came on forums in light of wales ban.
Re study, note use of the term possibly.
Also 5 dogs, out of several 1000s contained behind e fences in the usa.

Height of web presence, means I'm only on forums and email, not websited so hard to google me.

Adam
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