Hi Trouble.
I do agree with you to a certain extent, I do think rearing is a part of a dogs behaviour. But I also think that the breeding of a dog, its parents etc.. are the main part of it, genetics I suppose.

Hi Moobli, yes I agree with you completely, many dogs are a far cry form the dogs we used to see, pysically and mentally.


Hi Sue.
That description would suit me fine!! But yes would definately put some folk off.
Dawn.

Well I would agree with that too, otherwise why put in all the effort to find a breeder that you are happy with, the genetics I will have to leave to the knowledgable breeders, I think it's hard enough finding one you are happy with that does all the relevant health tests and is open and honest, but I do think there is way too much indescriminate breeding.

Yes, cant argue with that.
Dawn.

I do think temperaments are changing, but then so are families/people, so the dogs are bound to be bred to fit in with that.

That aside I think a lot of the "pet" dogs you see aren't really bred with anything in mind if you know what I mean?

The working Springer for me is a long way off what is in the breed standard:

General Appearance: Symmetrically built, compact, strong, merry, active.

Nowhere in there does it say "hyper", which has become the fashion for working Springers over the last couple of decades.

Temperament: Friendly, happy disposition, biddable. Timidity or aggression highly undesirable

Timid Springers are becoming the norm around here too sadly, one litter bred in the village resulted in all but 1 pup being nervous. The Dam was also a very nervous animal.

But on a happy note, there are those out there striving to keep breeds the way they were. Honest!

If that is the case how come that certain lines in malinois are uncapable to do serious work and other lines have given several good dogs. Genetics are the base and socialisation and training are the finnishing touch. A shy dog can be corrected to a certain extend but will never be as stable as a stable dog

Greetings

Johan

I dont think any dog should be bred off that is nervous or aggressive, I cant think of any breed that requires this in the breed standard? most breed standard ask for a sound temperment that is appropriate to that particular breed, and IMO any deviation from the breed standard is undesireable IMO

mo

You answer lies in the fact that today 'serious' breeders show. And to show you need a placid dog that will stand quietly for a period of time that is unnatural for any animate object!

If you have a look at the military dogs, I was lucky enough to meet some german sheps bred by strathclyde police... they are straight backed, and almost mottled in colour, pretty in their own right, but not 'show' quality. These dogs are bred for their ability, be it fearlessness, loyalty to handler, ability to turn from jekyll into hyde... fitness and health, and most importantly to me, LONGEVITY.
They don't want to be spending years training only to have the dog retire at 6/7/8, so they also breed only the healthy, long term what they get is very hardy dogs. The down side of that is that they loose the perfect markings and the weird angulated back, which as far as i can see is no great loss.

This is what i want to see more of, but as long as there is showing, it's not going to happen.

I believe that people should do more research in the breed they are looking for not only about health checks but what the dogs traits are and what jobs it was bred to do.Alot a people take on a dog just because it looks cute as a pup,but as it gets older they cant handle the dog because of its strong traits.
Take Patterdales ,ive known loads of people that take them on as pups only to find that later on in its life it ends up in a rescue because it wasnt a lap dog and dived around the house chasing the cat and killing the pet rabbit.
Its not the breeds temperament or character that is at fault but the people that dont think and buy a dog on impusle.Or because it looks cute on a toilet roll ad.

I think some of this is definitely going on. If you look at many breeds there is a real split between the working (true?) type and the show/pet type. I think it is a shame in one respect, but in another don't suppose it is entirely bad that there are "diluted" versions of the true type living in family homes as pets - as many true to type working dogs would go nuts in the average pet home.

Perhaps, although not ideal, the way ahead is to have two distinct types in breeds - a working type (which will be closer in looks and temperament to its forebears) and a pet/show type which will be more laid back and suited to living in a family home.

That "mottled"colour is called sable colour pattern & as for being the "straight"backed type(ie the "Alsatian" type from the 1950's)I am confused I know a lot(& I mean a lot not one or two)German working GSD breeders & none of their dogs thave the long soft"straight"backs as they have to pass the breed survey in order to have their off spring registered with the SV & so have to conform to the breed standard in Germany & the Strathclyde dogs are from German working bred dogs

Have a look at this site these are German working bred GSDs & very typical

They do not have Jekell & Hyde characters they are exceptionally good tempered with bred in trainability-which cannot be achieved simply by socialization & rearing. A GSD with a Jekyll & Hyde character would be a time bomb with the fuse lit

I've always had German bred GSDs right from 1958 when I got my first one from Ireland from Gwen Barrington's German imports

The Germans are very strict on breeding to the breed standard & ensuring all breeding dogs pass the Korung which tests not just temperaments & breed type but also working ability & control