midden

Unlike many people on here, I see nothing wrong with manhandling a dog, getting physical with it (sounds a bit wrong but you know what I mean!) and using harsher corrections if necessary. Sometimes a stronger willed dog needs a more forceful hand.

I think Mic Martin is a great trainer and I commend his approach to training, the dogs themselves and also the owners. He tells it like it is and doesnt namby pamby around and I respect that.

Well, I've only seen a Chihuahua on the programme once and he intensely disliked the Chi, so passed him on to the other Trainer.

So, much as I think he is an okay Trainer, he obviously wouldn't be interested in training my dogs, because of their breed.

I think he is a little harsh with the owners sometimes, although some of them are so ridiculously stupid, that he maybe can't help himself!

I don't shout at my dogs. I will use a range of voices though - some sounding harsher than others. My dogs respect me and understand the different tones in my voice and whether I am happy with them or not.

It might be helpful for us who correct our dogs to clarify exactly what we mean by correction.

I correct my dogs using my voice and tone, I will give them a tug on the lead if they pull, I will stand on a lead to make sure they stay in the down (when necessary), I will give them a tap on the bum or nose to get them to concentrate, or to stop what they are doing and listen to what I want them to do.

Yogi (5 month old GSD) has starting to show an interest in sheep that just is not acceptable and could get us both in trouble. I will therefore use a harsher correction (a shake of his scruff or a tap on the nose as well as a harsher tone of voice) to show him that I am displeased when he shows interest, and then tons of praise and reward when he ignores them. I believe this gives a clear and concise message to my dog - he knows what I am unhappy about and also when I am pleased. It must be working as he now only needs the harsher tone, and no physical touch at all. How would you train a dog that was interested in chasing livestock with your methods?

Regarding different breeds, temperaments and drives - I would be interested to know whether you have ever been involved in training police dogs, schutzhund dogs, protection or prison dogs? These dogs are generally the guarding breeds and are dominant, high-drive males in the majority. These dogs need correction as well as reward and praise. By correction, I don't mean choke chains, electric collars, hitting, shoving or kicking.

Could you please clarify for me what you mean by "correction", and what you consider to be a correction. I think it would help all involved in the conversation to know what is considered a correction by those who only train "positively". I would also say that I think that is a misleading term - as I wouldn't consider my own training to be negative at all. My dogs love training and love going to work - nothing negative about that at all

Thanks

I use positive praise and negative punishment
The most I 'correct' my dog is a quiet 'no' or 'ahhahhh' and Ben has learnt them to be a non reward sound so he stops what he is about to do and I ask him for another behaviour

If YOU have got it wrong and the dog is in a situation that it is not trained enough to know how to deal with then there is no point in punishing your dog - its your mistake and punishment will not make sense

Mia is fear agressive towards other dogs when on the lead, combined with being a bit puppy excited to see other dogs - giving out mixed messages to other dogs
when she pulls on the lead to get at the other dogs there is no point in me telling her off - she is scared
I stop and wait till she calms down then reward and take another step forwards

It took me 1/2 an hour but I was able to walk up to a class of 10 dogs training agility in the park and she sat quietly on the sidlines

a correction would not have helped - she needs to learn she can trust me not to take her somewhere dangerous and I will protect her

If a dog isnt listning to you then take a step back and figure out how you can build up your bond so the dog loves working with you
Working with humans is the natural behaviour for a dog
you take its breed and drives into account to figure out what will be a good reward for the dog, but they have all been selectivly bred from the ones who work the best

as for Mic
I dont think any of the TV shows do any trainers justice
Yes its good that he cares about the dogs welfare - every trainer should
But as most trainers will tell you its more about training the owner than the dog and his manner will put lots of people off so he cant help them

also, isnt he the one who uses agility for every dog??
now I think agility is great, but, I remember the show where he was getting the overweight rotty to jump the highest jump he could
not clever - get the weight off and build up from small jumps
agility is a great way to bond with your dog and build a better relationship with them so they want to work with you, please you and focus on your commands
He should be making it clear that his agility is not fixing the dogs problems and once the bond is stronger then you can work on training the other problems

and I am v not happy with his breed snobbery - I would NOT go to a trainer who had it in for my breed of dog - how would that help??
Good that he brings up the differences in breeds and how you should take the drives into consideration and not just the look of the dog

all in all I would prob go to a class by him, but like any class I would pick out the bits I liked and ignore the rest - and not take any abuse for myself or my dogs

I hope I have explained in my earlier post how I correct my dogs. I don't use choke chains (though I don't have any problem with half checks), I may speak louder, firmer or in a harsher tone, I don't shove and I don't hit.

Again, I repeat, I believe that all dogs are individuals and, as such, one size does not fit all.

I have no problem with people who wish to train using non-corrective methods alone. It just doesn't suit me or my dogs.

Totally agree Shona. It is all about balance.

I would consider training discs to be correction (and yes, I have used them in the past but was not particularly impressed).

In your first paragraph - that is surely just like me using a sharp "nah" to my dogs to stop the unwanted behaviour, and then "yeaaaaaah" when they stop doing it?

I have never got on with a clicker - I just much prefer to use my voice. Whether you use a clicker or your voice, the key is all about timing. I don't see why a clicker gives more precise info? What makes you say that?

What if the dog won't *tune in* to the discs? What about dogs that aren't at all motivated by food?

Not singling you out Catrin, I am just really interested in your way of training and finding out how it differs to my own, and with what kind of success.