I expect the reason for that is that they've found an approach that's working well for them and they don't see the need to slag off people that do things differently. And that makes sense - people that are confident and happy about what they are doing tend not to see the need to worry about others doing things differently.

But nevertheless, it's something that I think would be of value. I'm familiar with most of the TV programs and I've worked with lots of trainers and behaviorists. CM stands out as offering an important foundation that in my opinion the others all neglect. When challenged, most trainers agree wholeheartedly with that foundation but critisise some of his techniques and the theories that he uses to explain his intuition and experience. That's useful as it helps people to decide what to use and what to disregard.

But I would also like to see a bit more discussion about the shortcomings of the methods in other TV shows and those presented in dog training clubs throughout the country. In my opinion the biggest problem is that they seem to focus primarily on teaching tricks (walking to heel, sit, wait, etc) and not on the relationship between dog and owner.

Well I have started a thread - we will see.

Its an interesting point, I guess people go to training class to learn the basics
I would really love to do something like a controlled unleashed class, I love some of her ideas like the fact that she is more interested in getting the dog and handler focused and in the right place rather than rushing through excercises

I really want to run some kind of a class and I think you are totally right that more stress should be on how the dog learns not what it learns

Nice to see we agree on one thing then (above in bold).

If you read my post again, you'll see that I said I wasn't labelling YOU as a bully, merely disgusted that you seemed to be excusing the behaviour of some on here that hounded (pardon the term ) tink from here (by saying that Trouble can take it without a problem). You've obviously chosen to pick the parts of my posts that suit, so you think what you like. It's in plain English for all to see.

As for your comment on "(fill in your own thoughts here)" - please, that's just so silly. If you want to say something about me, just say it! Can't be doing with all this teenage tripe

Also, you say you don't care that I called you a bully (which actually I didn't and have already explained my post that was directed at you) and yet you reported my post, made sure you told me of that fact and are still banging on about it

To be honest, you confuse me In one post you say that Trouble can handle the heat (in so many words) implying that the rest of us "pros" are making a fuss. Then you say you are shocked that tink has been so upset and that no-one should be made to feel that way. No wonder I'm confused about where you stand on this; you seem to be a little confused yourself

The person I think was mainly at fault for hounding tink off the thread appears to have disappeared (though she's posted on other threads). Pity she didn't leave the thread before she upset another member so much that she felt the need to leave Dogsey

This is a very Good Balanced posts, making some good points.

If you have experienced any suffering, it was brought on by yourself and you then blamed it on others. Any abuse? You've imagined it. People were firm but fair in their dealings with you.

I have no worries with him, I know why he does it...his sister taught him (long story)....
Whoever trained him (it was you by the way, I am guessing you have never met CM)...he still isn't as well trained as you appear to think that he is.
I have no doubt you have a lovely dog. Peope on here do have lovely dogs. It sort of goes without saying. I also have dogs that have converted scared children...
I can't stand CM.

I have to say....your posts GNasher are well balanced and thought out (as were TV's..who I thought I was having a good chat with on here...)Trouble is also exceptionally pleasant even when you disagree with her. Unfortunately I have only seen CC post inflammatory remarks and join in when she has decided someone can't say something and then the 'bullying' thing flairs up again.I have only one person on ignore on here. I did check out one of their posts recently to see if anything had changed..it hadn't and it's tiresome. I see only one bully on these threads.

No anti CMers are bullies...just people expressing their opinions...it is a difficult topic as as soon as someone says CM advocates 'kicking/choking' and the like...thepro CMers feel offended..as if we are saying they abuse their dogs so healthy debate becomes difficult. I personally am not thinking anyone on these threads abuses their dogs..but it doesn't stop me seeing CM doing it on the tele every week. (Not that I tend to watch much anymore as my son can't stand watching what he does to the dogs and gets upset....)

Would be nice if we could all advance from the 'bullying theme' and assume no one thinks anyone on this thread is hurting their dogs...and take it from there.

That is precisely what I was saying m'dear ! That you are NOT a bully, but others definitely are ! Lord knows, I'm snappy enough, snappy as you rightly point out, does not make you a bully. It makes you a person who cares deeply about something.

Hi lilypup. CC and I DO accept that some people just find CM's methods totally unacceptable. That's fine, just as it is fine for US to find them acceptable ... you anti's can have your point of view, and we can have our's. Somewhere inbetween those two extreme views, is a wide open blank space upon which we should be able to debate, argue, even rant ... BUT NICELY !! That means without getting down dirty and personal, with wild accusations and insinuations flying around, turning this nice wide open blank space into the Somme !

The way I see it is that we should be able to discuss and debate the fascinating subject of dog training/rehabilitation without knocking the 7 bells out of each other - metaphorically speaking of course.

You are a reasonable person, some are not, but you don't need me to tell you this.

Great post, sensibly put

Ben : the old saying goes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" !

CM worked for Hal, and works for Tai, end of. Both were/are supremely happy, and in the case of Tai, extraordinarily obedient, biddable and just fantastic compared to what he was like when we first had him.

I do like Jan Fennell, and I love watching dog borstal. I have watched almost all of the Dog Whisperer episodes shown on Freeview (we don't have Sky), if not all of them, some episodes several times over, and I have plumped for CM. However, that does not go to say that I am deaf to what I have heard and seen on Dog Borstal.