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John Bull
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02-10-2009, 12:27 PM

Docking dogs tails

I would like to ask our members what they think of the practice of docking dogs tails.

My own conception of this dubious practice is that it is historic for some inconceivable reason and continued to this very day for purely cosmetic purposes.

If Mother Nature gave dogs a tail, it was for a very good reason. A dogs tail is allied to balance and information transfer to other animals.

To chop off a dogs tail for cosmetic, aesthetic or personal reasons is paramount to cruelty to animals and should be a criminal prosecution matter.

If the tail is subject to problems such as damage due to "happy" tail or the dog biting it then OK some kind of limited amputation is justifried.

I am not concerned with fighting dogs, since that disgusting practice should have been outlawed decades ago and the persons involved jailed for a very long time.

But for people whoever they are to chop a dogs tail off just because it is a Rottweiler, Dobermann or Boxer etc, for aesthetic, cosmetic or historic reasons is a barbaric and utterly selfish practice that under present day attitudes and legislation should be banned.

I have unfortunately come across people who have their dogs tails chopped off simply because THEY like the dog that way. People like that should be banned from owning a dog.

I would appreciate your comments on this matter
John Bull
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Wozzy
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02-10-2009, 12:44 PM
It is banned...The law came into effect in England and Wales on 6th April 2007.

Working terriers and gundogs are excluded and watching breeds such as the springer and cocker crashing about through the undergrowth, it's easy to see why docking their tails is undertaken.

I dont believe in it for cosmetic reasons and believe only those dogs who genuinely are going to be put to work should be docked. I see so many "allowed" breeds advertised with docked tails who will only end up being sold as pets. Technically, it's illegal and it makes me wonder how these so called breeders can have all their litters docked without providing evidence of a working home.

Just the other day I saw a puppy boxer without a tail. Whether it was a bobtail or not I do not know but it makes me wonder if some people are even aware of the laws now.

My next dog will be a Brittany. Preferably I want a bobtail and the breeder I have chosen is striving for bobs but if none are born then I will take a docked dog. I have a docked dog now but he's a crossbreed gundog and crossbreeds are exempt from the law.
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ClaireandDaisy
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02-10-2009, 12:48 PM
I`ve never understood why German Pointers `need` to have 2/3 of their tails cut off and English pointers don`t.
And why Springers `need` to be docked and Retrievers and Setter don`t. I don`t see the point in chopping bits off in case they get hurt.
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rune
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02-10-2009, 12:51 PM
The breeders do it illegally themselves. Etta was docked illegally but passed on as a rescue.

Derfa have said that agility will accept legally docked dogs but not illegally docked ones. Which puts all rescue docked dogs in a position where they can't find other working homes.

Not good.

rune
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Fi
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02-10-2009, 12:52 PM
Originally Posted by Leanne_W View Post
Working terriers and gundogs are excluded and watching breeds such as the springer and cocker crashing about through the undergrowth, it's easy to see why docking their tails is undertaken.
This is really the only bit of tail docking I agree with. Seeing cocker and springers work they wag their tails constantly. I can just imagine them getting ripped to shreds.

I love dog's tails and would probably not own any dog without a tail. However I guess this could be argued to be just as cosmetic as docking. As my breed it the border collie it doesn't really matter as they all have tails (except Stumpy of course).

Someone who is quite high up at my working trials club has just got a lovely wee chocolate doberman bitch. Legally docked apparently. It makes me sad.

Another of the dobermans at our club came second in the waggyist tail competition at a local show. I bet that hasn't happened often!
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Wozzy
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02-10-2009, 01:00 PM
Pointers and setters generally work upon the grouse moors where it's quite open and the undergrowth isnt as thick. They arent required to retrieve neither so the damage they can do to their tails is fairly limited. As is with the retrievers...they dont hunt so only go into cover to retrieve. Obviously, spaniels and HPR's both hunt and retrieve and their tails go at an amazing rate whilst working. Whilst on a scent HPR's wag their tails at the same rate as a springer, only becoming still on a staunch point. They can do alot of damage to their tails.
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JoedeeUK
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02-10-2009, 01:04 PM
Originally Posted by Leanne_W View Post

I have a docked dog now but he's a crossbreed gundog and crossbreeds are exempt from the law.

Since when ?????

2006 Animal Welfare Act states


(1) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he removes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment;

(b) he causes the whole or any part of a dog’s tail to be removed by another person, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment.

(2) A person commits an offence if—

(a) he is responsible for a dog,

(b) another person removes the whole or any part of the dog’s tail, otherwise than for the purpose of its medical treatment, and

(c) he permitted that to happen or failed to take such steps (whether by way of supervising the other person or otherwise) as were reasonable in all the circumstances to prevent that happening.

(5) The first condition referred to in subsection (4) is that there has been produced to the veterinary surgeon such evidence as the appropriate national authority may by regulations require for the purpose of showing that the dog is likely to be used for work in connection with—
(a) law enforcement,
(b) activities of Her Majesty’s armed forces,
(c) emergency rescue,
(d) lawful pest control, or
(e) the lawful shooting of animals.
(6) The second condition referred to in subsection (4) is that the dog is of a type specified for the purposes of this subsection by regulations made by the appropriate national authority.
& clarified by the quote below

7.1 The objective of section 6 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 is to ban the routine cosmetic docking of dogs’ tails. An exemption to the ban at section 6(3) applies to certified working dogs, and is intended to operate where injury to the dog through work may cause more pain and suffering than that of docking the dog as a puppy. The exemption is therefore justified on welfare grounds for dogs undertaking specified types of work. These Regulations describe and apply this exemption.
7.2 Certified working dogs must be of one of the following types: ‘Spaniels’, ‘Terriers’ or ‘Hunt Point Retrieve Breeds’. The latter is intended to include the breeds below but the list is not exhaustive, and allows for the addition of traditionally docked breeds of hunt point retrieve dogs which are new to England.
Bracco Italiano;
Brittany;
German long-haired pointer;
German short-haired pointer;
German wire-haired pointer;
Hungarian vizsla;
Hungarian wire-haired vizsla;
Italian Spinone;
Korthals Griffon;
Large Munsterlander;
Pudel Pointer;
Slovakian Rough Haired Pointer;
Slovakian Wire Haired Pointer;
Small Munsterlander;
Spanish Water-dog;
Weimaraner.
7.3 It remains the prerogative of a veterinary surgeon as to whether he chooses to dock a dog’s tail or not. Vets are encouraged to dock the puppy’s tail and microchip them at the same time where they feel this is feasible.
7.4 A dog may be docked if evidence is provided that it is likely to be worked in connection with law enforcement, activities of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces, emergency rescue, lawful pest control, or the lawful shooting of animals.
7.5 An emergency rescue service will commonly be understood to mean any person or body which uses dogs to assist in emergency rescue. This would include where such services are based in this country, but only usually provided abroad. Within the UK one might expect dogs to be used only in mountain rescue services; abroad, this country sends teams using dogs to assist in finding people in collapsed buildings in the aftermath of earthquakes.
I cannot see anything in the Act that exempts cross breeds from the ban on docking. Can you point me towards it ?
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Jackie
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02-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Originally Posted by John Bull View Post
I would like to ask our members what they think of the practice of docking dogs tails.

My own conception of this dubious practice is that it is historic for some inconceivable reason and continued to this very day for purely cosmetic purposes.

If Mother Nature gave dogs a tail, it was for a very good reason. A dogs tail is allied to balance and information transfer to other animals.

To chop off a dogs tail for cosmetic, aesthetic or personal reasons is paramount to cruelty to animals and should be a criminal prosecution matter.

If the tail is subject to problems such as damage due to "happy" tail or the dog biting it then OK some kind of limited amputation is justifried.

I am not concerned with fighting dogs, since that disgusting practice should have been outlawed decades ago and the persons involved jailed for a very long time.

But for people whoever they are to chop a dogs tail off just because it is a Rottweiler, Dobermann or Boxer etc, for aesthetic, cosmetic or historic reasons is a barbaric and utterly selfish practice that under present day attitudes and legislation should be banned.I have unfortunately come across people who have their dogs tails chopped off simply because THEY like the dog that way. People like that should be banned from owning a dog.

I would appreciate your comments on this matter
John Bull

I think you are behind thetimes docking is banned!!

Specially for the above highlighted breeds.
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Jackie
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02-10-2009, 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Leanne_W

I have a docked dog now but he's a crossbreed gundog and crossbreeds are exempt from the law.
No they are not, working terriers and gundogs are, but need legalisation to prove they are going to work.
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labradork
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02-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by John Bull View Post
I would like to ask our members what they think of the practice of docking dogs tails.

My own conception of this dubious practice is that it is historic for some inconceivable reason and continued to this very day for purely cosmetic purposes.

If Mother Nature gave dogs a tail, it was for a very good reason. A dogs tail is allied to balance and information transfer to other animals.

To chop off a dogs tail for cosmetic, aesthetic or personal reasons is paramount to cruelty to animals and should be a criminal prosecution matter.

If the tail is subject to problems such as damage due to "happy" tail or the dog biting it then OK some kind of limited amputation is justifried.

I am not concerned with fighting dogs, since that disgusting practice should have been outlawed decades ago and the persons involved jailed for a very long time.

But for people whoever they are to chop a dogs tail off just because it is a Rottweiler, Dobermann or Boxer etc, for aesthetic, cosmetic or historic reasons is a barbaric and utterly selfish practice that under present day attitudes and legislation should be banned.

I have unfortunately come across people who have their dogs tails chopped off simply because THEY like the dog that way. People like that should be banned from owning a dog.

I would appreciate your comments on this matter
John Bull
Oh chit, you'd better ban me and lock me up and chuck away the keys then . I have a docked dog. She was docked legally after the ban. I like the way she looks and being docked is of no detriment to her.

Don't you think you are being slightly extreme? it is one thing saying you don't agree with docking (which is fine), but saying people should be banned for owning/wanting a docked dog...get real. If you think docking is 'barbaric', you obviously haven't seen real animal cruelty.
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