Sorry I must have missed the Obsessive bit.

It seems to me encountering aversives is what puppies "do" and learn from, far more than their adult counterparts. Their adult counterparts have learnt from such experinces hopefully!

I think puppies pretty much take aversives, (fireworks, their first fall in water, their first knocking over of an object, the first time they encounter a non puppy tolerant adult dog or human, the first time they try to suckle and their mum says no, the first time they try to play with their mates and they say no, etc etc,) in their stride, from what I have seen. Puppies experience far more aversives than adults who have learnt to avoid such things. In my experince.

Personally, I don't think that AGE at which a method is applied is that important, more so its suitability at getting the desired result in the kindest, fastest way which offords the dog the best possible life.

I feel that I might appear objectionable as I appear to have a lot of views today , but I find this thread and all the views of its contributors fascinating. Apologies f anyone gets peeved, not my intention at all.

Hugs Dx

This post is of interest as I have an occasional 'poo eater', never her own but other dogs. She doesn't do it very often, but did quite a lot when first got her. However yesterday morning she had found something in the leaves and was about to devour it. I rushed over, as people leave all kinds of food, including chicken/rib bones. She sometimes drops whatever has found but wasn't going to let it go, because of her recent problems I took it from her, poo! All over my fingers, yuk! Could of done with some citronella then, for my hand
ps am not sure how feel about the collar, but if was the only thing left to try after time and in the dogs best interest, I don't know if would use or not.

.. but they are not 'set up' situations as in we dont decide the timing of the adversive (well shouldnt)

I researched this subject pretty extensively when my dog used to do it and although he still does it on occasion, I now know exactly why.

There is no doubt that this quickly becomes a self reinforcing, learned behaviour, but there are two distinct causes that get the ball rolling in the first place. The first one is behavioural and occurs when a pup gets regularly chastised for making a mess, pup then learns to 'hide the evidence' as it were. Cure and prevention for this behaviour is obvious so I won't go into it. The second cause is always, beyond any shadow of a doubt, diet.

If the diet lacks a particular element, be it a mineral, a protein or even sufficient quantity, then the dog will actively seek out food sources that could possibly contain that missing element. And by food sources, I mean poo. If the dog can't get what he needs from his own poo, then he will try and get it from other animals. And so the cycle begins and in no time at all, you have a learned behaviour.

I know, for an absolute fact, that if I give my dog a certain type of food that he will be eating his poo the very next day. I know that if I give him that same food for a couple of days, he will be after everyone else's poo too.

After reading through the entire thread I think that although it has been mentioned several times, the possibility of the dogs diet having an influence on this behaviour has been largely dismissed, when in fact it should be the primary focus. Even more so if the dog is already on steroids, which will obviously have an effect on his appetite/digestion and should have been taken into account by the vet who prescribed them.

Yes, you can treat the symptoms and yes you could do that with a spray collar (ethics aside, different discussion) but, even if the treatment is successful, if you do not address the original cause, there is nothing to stop the behaviour re-occurring in the future. Like someone has already said, they used this method for a year and even then only with limited success, probably because they did not address the cause in the first place. I agree wholeheartedly that once every conceivable positive method has been tried that sometimes all we are left with are the less desirable options and while they are not ideal, I could sympathise with someone feeling they had to resort to such extremes when there was no other choice left. But I do not believe that that is the case in this particular instance. Until there has been a proper examination and period of testing/experimentation on the dogs diet, then not every option or resource has been explored.

Without an awful lot more information it is difficult to pin point the precise cause but if the dog came to me with behaviour as you describe, I would put him on chicken and rice (and a lot of rice, until he didn't want to eat any more, to address the hunger caused by the medication) and then use a combination of a muzzle and positive training to break the habit of eating. What exactly does the dog eat? How long has he eaten it for? What other foods has he eaten? How much/how often is he fed? Is he under/overweight? Why has he been prescribed such a powerful course of medication at such a young age?

I love this thread!!!

So interesting to see different peoples attitudes to different aversives.

Adam

... basically if food isn't entirely digested it can smell like a new meal.

changing diet only helps if is to do with their own digestive system.

also pups are very mouth orientated and do seem quite bad at the age the ops dog is.



eta..the reason for coprophagia is still not completely understood(prob partly coz humans cant get their head around it in the first place lol)

I went down the dietary route with mine. I tried the majority of high quality dry kibbles (James Wellbeloved, Arden Grange, etc.), high quality wet foods (Natures Menu, Nature Diet, etc.) and even did a full year of prey-model raw feeding. I also tried filling him up with extra veggies/rice between meals incase it was purely a hunger issue. I even tried all the various additives and supplements that supposedly stopped them from doing it (whatever I saw on the internet; giving them charcoal biscuits, seaweed, digestive enzymes). NONE of these things made one iota of difference.

So, while I think it is definitely worth trying to make dietary adjustments, IMO more times than not it is strictly a behavioural thing and a compulsive habit.

I do think it is that bad used in that situation. I know when I used it on a dog/dog aggressive dog in rescue I was ultra careful to make sure as far as possible that the dog learnt what I wanted her to learn. So many things can go wrong with it.

You need to look at the temperament of the dog you are going to use it on as well----certainly wouldn't consider it for a dog under a year unless it was a really bad problem (which this isn't), vital to solve fast (which this isn't) and there was no other solutionj (which in this case there is----muzzle the dog when you can't control the situation.).

I have used it twice, once on the dog in rescue and once on Celt when he chased the sheep in the field surrounding our house. At the time I was training in the garden with titbits and a clicker! I did NOT pair the collar with the sheep---I used it to get a good recall---he was squirted twice and that was it. Since then he has been able to be called off a chase and will return to the nearest pair of legs----he won't actually look away from the prey which is why he can get the wrong legs.

So I know it can work but think it is the wrong situation, the wrong dog.


rune

My dogs have never done it and they are fed a cheap diet, working dog stuff.

But owned after puppyhood.

The clients dogs I met that do it are either like Tangocharlies dog (puppish that hasn't grown out of it)

Or older dogs that have done it for years but have been on loads of different diets for it.

Rune I don't see the diff between an e collar for what you describe and the spray collar, except that the e collar is more adjustable so the dog won't be as bothered by it.

Adam

.... only took 9 pages