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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 20,145
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06-08-2009, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by suze 
this is good training???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgHnp-AD9zk
watch from aout 4 mins
you'll see him'tap' the dog
the owner kick the dog (albeit 'gently')
and him sticking a terrified dogs ar5e into another dogs face.... apparnarlty this works.....
some trainer.......
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
I haven't had time to read all the thread (it's quite long, as they usually are
) but wanted to add something to it, I am sorry if it's already been mentioned or referred to!During one programme (not sure if it's been shown in the UK)there is evidence of lack of oxygen in the dog.
The programme was concerning the dog "Shadow". After CM had "dealt" with him, the dog actually had an engorged penis. This is a physiological sign of oxygen deprivation and proves that CM does indeed partially strangle dogs at times during use of his methods.
Whatever the views, I wanted to put this on here because as far as I'm concerned it needs to be absolutely confirmed that he does do this - not just have them on a tight high up lead or anything - and it does seem that the evidence is there.
Wys
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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06-08-2009, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble
Blimey Syd must be deprived of oxygen on a regular basis cos he frequently has an engorged penis and he does it to himself without a lead in sight.
but to be fair,it IS a symptom of oxygen deprivation.......im sure you have heard of the strange 'sexsual practise' that some humans enjoy....not sure about dogs tho
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Location: Southern California, USA
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 73
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06-08-2009, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
Only praising the dog when he has done good? Is that negative ... I think not !
Being 100% consistent ?
Staying calm and assertive ?
Giving your dog loads of exercise ?
Allowing him to be a dog ... lots of socialisation with his own species ?
Did you use the methods I described or the ones you described? If you used yours, then I don't see how you were following CM, if you used mine then you were using negative...Its not rocket science.
Originally Posted by Tassle
If you are using physical force to get the dog to behave in a certain way that would be negative.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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06-08-2009, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Steven_L
I agree with you Gnasher, I would advice anyone training a dog to follow the advice you just posted. I do believe CM also advocates most of that right? Well you can't really give him credit for that, every trainer should advocate what was listed above. Issues appear when methods such as kicking, alpha rolling, kneeing, slapping, scruff shaking, etc are used.
Did you use the methods I described or the ones you described? If you used yours, then I don't see how you were following CM, if you used mine then you were using negative...Its not rocket science.
Careful about your definitions of negative vs. positive. Techniques such as physical modelling a non-operant technique requires the owner to pull/push the dog to teach it what a command means however it is not a negative technique.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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06-08-2009, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble
Blimey Syd must be deprived of oxygen on a regular basis cos he frequently has an engorged penis and he does it to himself without a lead in sight.
An engorged penis is usually indicative of arousal, as we all well know
However, arousal is not necessarily of a sexual nature. Intense anger can cause the same reaction. I accept that in humans oxygen deprivation can cause an engorged penis, but I need to be convinced that will happen in dogs. The dog's penis, along with many other mammals, are constructed slightly different from the human male, and I am just not convinced that oxygen deprivation will cause this in the canid.
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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06-08-2009, 07:28 PM
Positive Training is REWARDING the Good,
Negative Training is PUNISHING the bad.
So in General terms if you "correct" the dog in anyway for a unwanted behaviour that you want to stop you are Training Negatively, If you Reward the GOOD behaviour that you want then you are training positively.
So for Eg:
Not pulling
CM will use the lead,leg, handd, correction Tsst , all when doing unwanted behaviour. This is negative training.
A positive training would Shape some behaviour so the dog could be rewarded for doing the correct thing, & the bad behaviour not rewarded at all.
Thats the very basics of it
But then it gets Complicated:
You can have :
Positive Reinforcement
Positive Punishment
Negative Reinforcement
Negative Punishment
Any Positive means "adding something" & Negative means "taking away"
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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06-08-2009, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Hevvur
In the video Suze posted, CM even says he will 'force' the dog!
When the owner 'touches' him with her leg/foot, she 'touches' him that hard, his whole body moves! Thats not a touch, thats deffinately a kick! And I don't think it did anything to 'get his attention'!
Also, when she is yanking the lead - she does it so hard the poor dog is practically swung halfway round her body!
It's one thing to gently tug the lead - but when you move the dogs whole body - it's far too hard.
I also think it was totally unfair to make the dog have it's bum sniffed. You could tell how uncomfortable it was - poor thing
But this is totally natural canine behaviour !! Not unfair at all IMO.
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Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
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06-08-2009, 07:38 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
But this is totally natural canine behaviour !! Not unfair at all IMO.
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Location: Cardiff, UK
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 6,033
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06-08-2009, 07:39 PM
Positive Punishment
Negative Reinforcement
Negative Punishment
Positive Punishement is what CM does he adds punishment to the dogs behaviour, by adding punishment to the 3rd part (ie the dog)
Negative Punishment is where , say if the dog does not do the desired behavour instead of ignoring it & just praising the good, you take something away.
Negative Reinforcement is where you stop the Punishment because the dog is behaving. & therefore learns to submit. So for example if everytime your dog looks at a chicken & you do your Tsst hand bite (positive P) when it stops & you dont do anything that is Negative Reinforcement.
Positive reinforcement is obvisley giving your dog something good as a reward for a good behavoiur to encourage it to to repeat this behavoiur.
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