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lou3
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31-03-2006, 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Thordell
As a matter of interest why are you castrating him?
Probably because there is really no excuse not to. A castrated dog is happier and healthier than an entire dog. If it weren't in the best interests of the dogs welfare it would not be recommended by the RCVS (royal college of veterinary surgeons)
Add to that the fact that even the most secure garden can be escaped from by a very determined dog if there is a bitch in heat nearby, and unwanted puppies are as much the problem of the owner of the dog as the owner of the bitch (or should be) and you have a picture where it is very clearly both the sensible and responsible thing to do to have your dog castrated if he is not a valuble breeding animal. Both from a socialogical standpoint and an animal welfare standpoint.
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lou3
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31-03-2006, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by bagoratz

As for aggression, I feel sure there are plenty of owners out there who have prevented this from an early age with the use of knowledge and effective training to re-inforce the dog's place in the pack, without snipping his bits off!!!

I'd be interested to hear about this if anyone has experience of this??
Yep my neighbours had a dog they insisted on keeping entire despite him not being a champion and potential breeding animal. They did all the proper things, socialised him well, took him to obediance classes etc etc. The dog was absolutely fine with all other dogs until he turned 18 months old and then he started to show dog-aggression towards other intact male dogs. He was castrated at three years old but by then it was much too late. They now cannot let him off the lead incase an intact male appears. He is fine with females and most castrated males. This is not a problem that can always be trained out. The dog can be right at the bottom of the pack as far as human are concerned but another dog standing in his way is a whole different ball game.
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Pita
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01-04-2006, 06:07 AM
Well yes LOU3 that is your opinion but despite what you infer it is not that of a good may vets and experienced dog owner. I asked a civil question, you have told me why you have castrated yours, because IYO it is the only way to go, other may have different reasons and I would like to hear them.

However strong your feelings it does not give you the right to assume we all feel the same, or to answer for others, so Shelley if you wish to answer for yourself I will be pleased to hear what you have to say.

There are probable more bigoted opinions about the neutering of dogs than almost anything else to do with animal husbandry most of which are a collection or oldwife’s tales and misinformation, sadly it is not just the lay owner who backs up their believes with spurious ‘facts’.

Have met a few professionals who when challenged admit they had not really thought about it from the point of view of the animals wellbeing, it was more a case of taking the decisions about breeding out of what they thought were inadequate dog owners. When asked why they did not educate instead their answer was a shock but not a surprise. This attitude was a few years back and it could be it has changed, but I doubt it.
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Pita
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01-04-2006, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by lou3
Yep my neighbours had a dog they insisted on keeping entire despite him not being a champion and potential breeding animal. They did all the proper things, socialised him well, took him to obediance classes etc etc. The dog was absolutely fine with all other dogs until he turned 18 months old and then he started to show dog-aggression towards other intact male dogs. He was castrated at three years old but by then it was much too late. They now cannot let him off the lead incase an intact male appears. He is fine with females and most castrated males. This is not a problem that can always be trained out. The dog can be right at the bottom of the pack as far as human are concerned but another dog standing in his way is a whole different ball game.
It would seem that you are saying that castration will stop dog-aggression, that is not so, the only time that castration will help with dog-aggression is if that aggression it testosterone fuelled and that is somewhat unusual.

Castration can help but not very often and in some cases it can make matters worse. The reasons for dog-aggression are more likely to be the dog concerned having been removed form the nest too early, not having been socialised properly or not being controlled. They may also have been bred with a desire for this trait to be present.

My experience of intact dogs is that they grow into sensible gentleman, who have no problem with other dogs at all, I keep a group of intact males together and know others who do the same, some even have mixed groups and providing the bitches are removed before they are ready to be mated there is no problem there either.
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JoedeeUK
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01-04-2006, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by Shadowboxer
It is my opinion that dogs should be castrated unless they are required for breeding but if there are no behaviour problems such as inappropriate marking, and persistent 'humping' after the puppy stage (all puppies, male & female, will display humping behaviour which is natural) - then leave castration as long as possible - at least 12 - 18 months. This will give the time required for the urinary system to mature and for general physical maturation.
My experience is just the opposite & the only dog I've ever had that has marked & bitched was a castrated(for medical reasons)dog who actually mated & tied with a bitch several years after he was done & he was castrated relatively early at twelve months & had never bitched or marked before he was done

He also had prostrate problems in later life

Bitches on the other hand do definitely benefit from being spayed Having had 4 bitches two which were bred from & two that weren't that all had pyrometras(one was a closed one)i would definitely have any bitch I owned spayed if I was going to breed from her after her 1st season & any bitch I intended to breed from spayed after she had finished her breeding

My first BC was just 7 months younger than her father which meant he was 5 months old when he was fertile enough to mate & produce puppies !!! & this was back in 1969 BTW
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JoedeeUK
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01-04-2006, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by lou3
Probably because there is really no excuse not to. A castrated dog is happier and healthier than an entire dog. If it weren't in the best interests of the dogs welfare it would not be recommended by the RCVS (royal college of veterinary surgeons)
Add to that the fact that even the most secure garden can be escaped from by a very determined dog if there is a bitch in heat nearby, and unwanted puppies are as much the problem of the owner of the dog as the owner of the bitch (or should be) and you have a picture where it is very clearly both the sensible and responsible thing to do to have your dog castrated if he is not a valuble breeding animal. Both from a socialogical standpoint and an animal welfare standpoint.
Hm I've only ever had one male castrated(for medical reasons BTW)all my others have been entire & my current dogs consist of 4 entire males & one spayed bitch.

I've had many entire male dogs over the years including at one time three stud dogs(& before any one says anything yes they were all health tested & working & show dogs & were only allowed to be used on selected bitches I turned down far more studs than I accepted)& I've never had a dog climb out & go bitching despite several local latchkey bitches allowed to roam in & out of season

My dogs have never fought each other or outside dogs & have never had any dog to dog aggression, simply because they had & have the correct temperaments for the breeds(GSDs, BCs, Cavaliers & Bearded Collies)& were bred with this in mind

Now bitches are a different matter & there are definite health benefits for bitches, however spaying an aggressive bitch will never cure the problem & bitch to bitch aggression is far more serious & usually permanent unfortunately & is often linked to hormonal changes(& removing the female hormone doesn't"cure"it )

My puppy retained one or other of his testicles whilst he was teething & a young vet tried to book him in for castration at 15 weeks on the grounds he would never be entire ! Now if I had been inexperienced I would have believed him & gone ahead. However having had dogs over a few years(argh 48 years in July this year !!!)I know that puppies often pull their testicles up & might not be entire until twelve months. My puppy finished teething & became entire on the same day(very normal in BC's BTW) A senior vet at the practice heard the advice I was being given re castration & was going to correct the young vet until he realised it was me & that I knew the advice was incorrect. LOL the next time I saw the senior vet he told me that the surgery practice was not to persuade owners to castrate every puppy & that he had done an awareness talk with all the vets re castration & spaying & that the vets were told to offer advice & guidance & options before castration was offered

As it happens my puppy may never be bred from as he is a CEA carrier(DNA tested)but unless it becomes medically necessary he will not be castrated
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Shadowboxer
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01-04-2006, 09:32 AM
Not sure I follow Joedee There are always exceptions to prove (test) every rule - but I was not implying that marking & humping is to be found in all entire males or that such behaviour is unheard of in castrates. I was simply offering my own opinion - on castration generally; behaviour indicators; and the most suitable age at which surgery, if chosen, should be performed. While the sometimes difficult behaviours presented and associated with male sexual adolescence and maturity can certainly, in many cases, be 'worked through' by experienced owners who know what to expect and the optimum methods of management, I feel that those who chose castration should not be in any way castigated - provided that they have researched the pros and cons and reached an educated and informed decision. My opinion only
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bagoratz
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01-04-2006, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by lou3
Probably because there is really no excuse not to. A castrated dog is happier and healthier than an entire dog. If it weren't in the best interests of the dogs welfare it would not be recommended by the RCVS (royal college of veterinary surgeons)
Add to that the fact that even the most secure garden can be escaped from by a very determined dog if there is a bitch in heat nearby, and unwanted puppies are as much the problem of the owner of the dog as the owner of the bitch (or should be) and you have a picture where it is very clearly both the sensible and responsible thing to do to have your dog castrated if he is not a valuble breeding animal. Both from a socialogical standpoint and an animal welfare standpoint.
Why is a castrated dog happier than an entire dog????
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ste.n.steph
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01-04-2006, 05:51 PM
I know i will get my head rip off by some people but here it goes.
Castration is normally around 6-8 months i know cos i have had 2 done and both different breeds.
and also yes castration does work for aggression, a friend was told to have it done for her dog and it worked a treat cos they dont have the hormones going through their body and as if you watch its me or the dog she suggest it for aggression and as a number of other things.

If this woman decides she wants to castrated her dog we should not be having ago at her cos she wants to that is her choice and no one elses, yes some people dont like it but it isnt being done to their dog.

Also we should be trying to help her and give her information and advice not having ago at her.

Good luck with your new puppy and good luck with the castration if you have it done.
Steph
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Pita
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01-04-2006, 06:01 PM
Who is having a go, as you put it?
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