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Mattie
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Location: West Yorkshire
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05-12-2013, 11:39 AM
Originally Posted by BSunshyne View Post
Hello~ I need some advice. I have two mini schnauzers, 5.5 years old. I got them from a breeder at 9 weeks old, they are littermates.
Because this is such a dangerous situation I am going to be blunt, please take this as it is intended, to help and is not an attack.

First, a good breeder would not have rehomed 2 littermates to the same home, it is a recipe for trouble and you were working from a bad start.

Monty has been my alpha dog, he is the more confident one of the two. Bear is my issue. He has had some nervous aggression issues (while on a leash, towards some dogs, and some kids). He has not had any aggression issues with ANY adult/older kids, he is a love bug, and a sweet sweet dog.
Nervous aggression issues is usually fear, Bear is frightened of other dogs and kids, a lot of dogs are aggressive on a lead even when they are fine off lead.

I have hired a trainer, and have been working weekly with a trainer for a few months prior to the birth of my daughter, and then we started again 4 months ago. In the past few months, Bear has bit the nose of my trainers' dog during training, growled/snapped at a 6 year old (kid was poking at bear throughout the evening),
Why wasn't this child stopped from poking Bear? This has reinforced Bear's fear of children and it wasn't his fault he growled/snapped at the child, it is every adult who was there's fault for not stopping the child. When children are allowed to do this it is a recipe for the dog to do serious damage which can kill a small child. The dog will then pay for with his life because the adults couldn't be bothered to stop the child.

and this past weekend, he bit my 17 month old neice in the face, and broke the skin (he was on my husbands lap, she touched the recliner arm then he bit her- no issues when she was staying with us for the prior 1.5 weeks, no growling, etc).
Bear has been taught to be frightened/worried about young children, Bear is comfortable, a child who he is frightened of comes across so he reacts, us humans react when we are frightened as well so why should a dog be different?

How to decide what the right course of action is? need some help. Mom, MIL, sis are very concerned about bear biting my daughter, OR another kid. do we muzzle him around other people? keep him in a kennel? re-home him?
This is not fair on Bear, he has been taught to be worried/frightened and when he reacts he is mizzled or put outside in a kennel. Would you do this to a child who bit? Many do, but we don't treat them like this.

We are still working with the trainer (she has sucessfully rehabilitated numerous Katrina-rescue Pitts). I am also going to speak with her about my concerns.

Any advice/questions to ask would be greatly appreciated.

thanks!
My opinion is Bear would be better away from you all so he can learn that children are not very scary monsters out to get him as he thinks now, he needs to be in a home were there are no children, no amount of training will help bear while children are allowed to poke at him or do other things that annoy/frighten him. This trainer should have told you this if she is any good, there isn't any point in putting so much work in if you don't train your children as well.

Yes I have had children, 3 boys, I also ran a pre-school playgroup for quite a few years and taught all of them to respect animals. My own children knew they were not allowed to go near my dogs if my dogs were in their baskets, they knew they were not allowed to poke, pull ears, stick fingers into ears, eyes and mouth, they were kept out of the room when my dogs were eating etc. Safety of children and ALSO the dog has to take priority.

Nobody can force you to do the right thing with Bear, but can you live with him doing damage to a child because you didn't do what you should have done? I know I couldn't.
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Mazza
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05-12-2013, 12:19 PM
Perhaps rehoming is the best option in this case as you have got a lady who has experience of the breed, lives alone so a lot calmer household and you know her so you can follow his progress. A difficult choice I know but I am thinking of you, the dog and mainly your little girl.
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mjfromga
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05-12-2013, 07:06 PM
I don't have children, but I encounter them each time I take my dogs into public places. This is rather often. Jade, the GSD mix abhors children and I'd be mortified if she bit one in the face because I wasn't careful enough.

She is muzzled when around them and I avoid bringing her around them when ever possible. Like Mattie said, children need to be taught not to harass dogs. I always let my Lab mixes play with children, but I try and keep a close eye out for naughty children that haven't been taught how to treat animals.

I was actually forced to grab a child's hand one time after she would not stop snatching at my dogs ear. Not roughly, but to make her STOP. He would never have bitten her, but I could see he wasn't happy and she would not stop when asked (bad parenting).

It's your job to ensure that kids aren't harmed by the dog, and vice versa. If you are working with a trainer with no results.. it might be time to take that next step. Also, as an American... people on this site might not know about the Katrina incident as most of them are from the UK.

I disagree that he would not be dominant towards his brother. Heritage doesn't always mean anything if a dog has a "dominant" personality. If she says the dog is dominant over his brother, I'm sure she has a reason.

There IS; however... no such thing as a "stooge dog" as any dog can and will react if he believes his life to be in danger. Regardless of breed, size, personality, etc.

This belief has caused a lot of problems as dogs suddenly reacts to something in a way that the dog has never reacted before... and then their owners go babbling about "my dog has never done that before" because they thought that dog wouldn't EVER react just because the dog doesn't normally react...

There isn't a solid reason why this dog can't be re-homed IMO. He's reactive towards children and some dogs... those issues are common and can be dealt with by people who know what they are doing and have the time and resources at hand.

Again, I'm not in this situation so you have to do what you feel is best in any case. If I was going to have a baby and I knew my dog didn't like kids, I'd certainly try and re-home the dog because there isn't a point in having the dog bite or maul the child and live in a stressful situation with muzzles all the time etc. Lose - lose you've got there.
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Jenny
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05-12-2013, 07:59 PM
In my opinion the fact that your two are great together shows that it is nothing to do with the fact that they are littermates. If I were you I would rehome him to the lady who has recently lost her dog. She has experience of the breed and you'll probably find he does a lot better with a one-to-one relationship and she'll be able to give him more time.

Don't beat your self up over it. This can happen. I have littermates and one is fearful of any dog he hasn't met before or who races over off lead. He is fine with everyone, kids too and I did socialise them really well, but unfortunately one of mine was attacked when he was 10 months old and he is fearful of being attacked himself.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.
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KYes
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05-12-2013, 09:33 PM
Hi mjfromga

we all heard about Katrina
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mjfromga
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05-12-2013, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by KYes View Post
Hi mjfromga

we all heard about Katrina
Hi, KYes. I thought so, but I was just stating it just because.
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Jackie
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06-12-2013, 09:14 AM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
There IS; however... no such thing as a "stooge dog" as any dog can and will react if he believes his life to be in danger. Regardless of breed, size, personality, etc.
I assume that statement is your personal opinion and not a given fact, it may be better if you made that clear so as not to give others the wrong impression.

Maybe its down to you not understanding the meaning of a "stooge dog"

They do exist, there are many trainers who find them invaluable when rehabilitating reactive dogs.

How many times have you heard the advice given on here "find someone with a "calm steady dog " to walk with..... that calm steady dog is a "stooge dog"

A stooge dog is one that will not react to another throwing hissy fits, you seem to think its one that would be thrown into the lions den and not fight back

Before you post something as "FACT" please make sure it is fact, and not just an opinion.
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Julie
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06-12-2013, 09:22 AM
Originally Posted by Jackie View Post
I assume that statement is your personal opinion and not a given fact, it may be better if you made that clear so as not to give others the wrong impression.

Maybe its down to you not understanding the meaning of a "stooge dog"

They do exist, there are many trainers who find them invaluable when rehabilitating reactive dogs.

How many times have you heard the advice given on here "find someone with a "calm steady dog " to walk with..... that calm steady dog is a "stooge dog"

A stooge dog is one that will not react to another throwing hissy fits, you seem to think its one that would be thrown into the lions den and not fight back

Before you post something as "FACT" please make sure it is fact, and not just an opinion.

I have one of the ones who won't fight back so I know exactly what you mean, she was attacked badly but just lay on her back and cried, the dog could have killed her she would not have fought back. Would have if she were younger (before the attack which has left her nervous) been a great stooge dog.

Only one we have had all the others would have reacted in some way so I guess we have to excuse anyone not knowing about them.
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Tang
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06-12-2013, 09:29 AM
I can assure you there are dogs who will not fight back or retaliate even to defend themselves. My last Cavalier was one of them.
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Jackie
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06-12-2013, 09:42 AM
Originally Posted by Tang View Post
I can assure you there are dogs who will not fight back or retaliate even to defend themselves. My last Cavalier was one of them.
Many of us have been owned by dog that will not fight back, I am assuming the poster has never had such a dog.

A friend of mine had a collie cross, he was the ultimate stooge dog, he never got riled, if any of the other dogs got iffy with each other , he would simply body block and stop any agro, if a dog snarled at him, he would just ignore the hissy , allowing the other dog to give up and back off.
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