no its not,and that is sad....out of sight out of mind? not where living things are concerned imo...not being mine anymore would not stop me thinking about the dog and caring what happens to it.....if i could do something to help that i would.......i think a goodwill gesture or bribe whatever u want to call it is a small price to pay.

Odd that you see it as a bribe.....

I have the same discussion with people who will not use food in training dogs - they see it as being bribery and therefore wrong.

erm where did I mention not caring about it, or thinking about it any longer because I had sold the dog? I also didnt mention out of site out of mind, thats certainly how I would never feel about a dog, one we fostered or bred My point is once you sell a dog, you are no longer the owner, therefore have no say or little say in what happens to the dog..

Ive just got through reading all the posts.

And to be fair, I cant see how refunding £250 will stop people breeding. After all, if they are irresponsible owners who wont get the endorsements lifted by doing the correct health tests and whatever else is required, then what is £250 to that owner?

If you see this from the point of view of the owner who wants to make a profit from breeding said dog, then to them, £250 is nothing if they plan on selling each puppy for £700. I really cant see how it will stop irresponsible breeding of dogs.

Yes, it might provide some incentive to some of the owners to get their dogs neutered, microchipped and insured etc, but I can only see that being useful for those who struggle with money and would find that kind of pay back useful.

Maybe my way of looking at it is backwards, but to be honest, if i was an irresponsible owner who bought a puppy with endorsements and wanted to make a quick buck from breeding, then the £250 means nothing.

I know breeders cant always be certain of who they sell to, but hopefully you get it right most of the time and get owners who are aware of the ongoing costs of owning a dog, and IMO, some of those fundamental costs are insuring, microchipping, vaccinations and neutering. Its something new owners should be better educated about, and made aware of by the breeder if need be so that they understand that the price of the puppy is the first hurdle, and they should consider putting money aside each month to pay for these things that need to be done at a later date.

If they cant afford those things, then they should not buy a puppy. The breeder shouldnt have to refund the money to the owner. If the owner can't put money aside for those things, then whats to say they will bother to take it to training, take it to the vet etc. How far do you want to go with 'positively reinforcing' owners to take the right step?

totally different.. nothing wrong with giving a treat for good behaviour, your rewarding your dog for something you want it to do/asked it to do.

Owners SHOULDNT need rewarding to make them do something. Im not saying your idea (whos ever idea it was) wouldnt work, or what ever... But it shouldnt be needed and a breeder that felt it was needed clearly doesnt trust who is taking away her/his pups. Owners and breeders should meet a number of times before pup is taken, in this time a friendship, mutal trust should have been gained if not something isnt right....

again your are expecting everyone to be telling you the truth!

....make it standard in the contract for all pups,bases covered(a bit) then.

Im really not... But if you look hard enough lies are always found out, this is why you vet owners.

no i didnt mean you personally

exactly the dog not yours anymore so any little thing that could help is good.

No - Owners should not NEED rewarding - and how does it say that you do not trust the person - The breeder of Siren trusted me - as it was I consulted with her every step of the way towards breeding from Siren - and had her full support.
As an Aside - she has a discounted price for people she knows are going to work the dogs - which is a different twist on it I guess......what do you think of that?

Please DO NOT get the idea I not up for finding ways to reduce the pressure on rescue and stop indisciminate breeding, because I am.

I am all for stopping people breeding from endorsed pups without meeting the requirements.

Unfortunately, the large amount of these people who do this are top show kennels and small hobby breeders - I can only speak from a 'hobby' perspective - but when I breed a litter - I put EVERYTHING into it.

The more nails put in the coffins of people like this - the wider the gap to be filled becomes - and it doesn't take a genius to guess how that gap will be filled

If anything, some breeds actually need MORE responsible hobby breeders rather than less, even if only to try and stop the PF and BYB.

It isn't, and never has been about making a profit - but few of us are in the luxurious position of being able to make huge losses either.

You set the price of a litter long before the pups are even born - that litter could be 14 pups or just one, or even none - and the loss of a much loved bitch - the PF won't care about the latter - but to someone with just a handful (and sometimes just one) bitch to continue their lines - in addition to the unimaginable loss and distress of a beloved family member - you are still faced a large bill with NO return - not to mention in some instances a wealth of research and effort in producing and improving those breeding lines.

You don't adjust the price of the pups according to the number of pups you have - and the 'hidden' costs will be relative to the size of your litter.

Your typical small breeder is your average 'person' on the street with a job and family to consider, feed and clothe and won't have the odd £1500 available to hand over to puppy buyers.

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Make viable and realistic suggestions that are enforceable and measurable - and people will start to take notice - so far we have suggestions of new laws and regulations replacing existing unenforceable laws and regulations - and the status quo will undoubtedly remain or even make the present situation worse - and I don't understand why people can't see that

Puppy buyers could help themselves ENORMOUSLY by doing their research - only this week I turned someone away from my waiting list and directed them to what I felt were more suitable options for them -

I didn't get a response, and have no doubt I won't - I've also no doubt that they will get a puppy elsewhere which I find quite depressing -

and once again exonerates their responsbility in saying - oh - "why might we be unsuitable for a pup?"

Who will ultimately suffer? the pup