Interesting post Lizzy!

I do not believe in the alpha structure concept (or rather, one that suggests that the human is part of that pack). From what i understand this was evolved from watching wolf packs - but dogs are no more wolves than they are ferrets! The average household dog does not want to challenge for leadership as much as folk are led to believe.

Neither Willis nor Phoebe challenge anyone in this family. They are treated as dogs and they behave like them. Their job is to keep an eye on the house - and they do it well. This has been taught through encouragement when he instinctively alerts us to what is going on - and the fact that he recognises a visitor is not allowed in unless welcomed by us and him. We live in the middle of nowhere and its important we have a dog that knows his job - however, I chose a Dane because I didn't want too much of a guarding instinct, although I do love rotties

I digress. What I mean to say is that yes, I agree some dogs can display unwanted (perceived as dominant) behaviour - but I am not convinced that is because they are trying to take hold of the house. For example, a terrier that has been allowed on the bed and never taught the command "off" may bare his teeth at his owner. Is that because he sees himself as superior..or just because he is comfy and doesn't want to move? Surely to want to be head of the pack, the dog would have to view the human as a dog - which it does not?

this http://www.dog-dominance.co.uk/ puts it so much better than I could

Thanks Chloe, that was an interesting read

Hi,

Dogs are pack animals. If they are allowed to wander, they join up with other dogs and form a pack. The pack will have a leader who asserts his dominance through aggression. They may not look like wolves anymore, but the pack mentality is still very much intact and when allowed, dogs (when undisturbed by people) will behave far more like wolves than anyone may think.

I'm not saying that dogs see people as dogs, but if they didn't believe they belonged to the same pack, they would not try and defend us or our property. That was the whole reason for domesticating wolves instead of eating them- they allowed themselves to become part of the human pack and acted as they would in an all wolf/dog pack, that is they returned our affections and looked out for us as we did them.

You said, "For example, a terrier that has been allowed on the bed and never taught the command "off" may bare his teeth at his owner. Is that because he sees himself as superior..or just because he is comfy and doesn't want to move?"

Isn't it the same thing? He doesn't think the person has the right to move him when he is comfy, he is challenging the owners dominance over him. A dog would not bare its teeth because it didn't know a command, unless it was threatened (put in fight or flight mode).

Hiya

Taken from the above site:

New research and new theories on dog behaviour have recently come to the fore, so out of interest let’s look at a dog’s life from a different perspective. The first question we have to consider is whether the dog is a pack animal. According to ethologist Ray Coppinger, it isn’t. He studied a group of feral dogs that lived in and around a village. They had all the means of survival readily available, food from the village dumps, water, and shelter so there was no reason for them to form a pack. They lived semi-solitary lives or in small groups, probably mum and her offspring. We know dogs are social animals, as are we, which is why we can live together under the same roof. So on the basis of Coppinger’s research, as we provide our dog with sufficient food, water is always available, they have five star accommodation, exercise is provided and their health cared for, why would they form a pack with us?

Another aspect of the pack theory is that packs tend to be conspecific; in other words they are made up of the same species. Therefore dogs and people cannot form a pack in the true sense of the word; a social group yes, but not a pack. Dogs don’t think like us, behave like us, smell like us, or live by the same values as us. Given these facts, shouldn’t we be questioning whether our dog in the living room really is looking for opportunities to raise its status?

WOW He is beautiful, and so big.

What does he weigh ???

How tall is the girl he is standing with ???

Take Care

Ashley...

He is beautiful, and I hate to say the same thing, but OMG, look at his size!! Nice coloring too Your daughter is adorable as well

"So on the basis of Coppinger’s research, as we provide our dog with sufficient food, water is always available, they have five star accommodation, exercise is provided and their health cared for, why would they form a pack with us?"

Because those are the functions/services that wolves provide for each other!

"We don’t have to be Alpha, dominant or pack leader, and neither does our dog. All we need to be is an owner responsible for guiding our dog, shaping and influencing its behaviour through correct socialisation and training so they can live in harmony with us."

This correct rearing of dogs is exactly what will establish the human members of a household as being higher ranking pack members.

I don't agree with his observations regarding feral dogs. Perhaps that was a one off case. I can tell you that I have witnessed dogs who have been abandoned by their owners form packs. These packs will usually scavenge for food, from dustbins etc, but there is still a social heirachy even though they haven't hunted and killed their food (though it has been said that they will kill and eat the feral cats if they catch them). The dominant male and female will eat first. I've even seen dogs with an owner one day, then the next (when the owner has buggered off) it has joined up with 1 of the packs. Sometimes the new addition can fight his way to being the alpha.

"They lived semi-solitary lives or in small groups, probably mum and her offspring"

How was the observer to know that the small groups consisted of a mum and her offspring? He doesn't state whether or not within those small groups there was a social structure.

"Therefore dogs and people cannot form a pack in the true sense of the word; a social group yes, but not a pack. "

What is a pack if not first and foremost a social group? Just because dogs may not hunt anymore (though my dog has killed rabbits, he does not go ahead and start eating it, but brings it back to me first. I never instructed him to do this as I didn't realise he would be able to catch and kill a rabbit, and when he brought it to me I was more than a little shocked! Oh, and it wasn't because he didn't know what to do with a dead rabbit, he is on a raw diet and the rabbits he kills himself sometimes form a part of it), they still show all the other traits of being in a pack. They bond to us as they would other dogs, why else would they guard our territory and us? We protect, feed and love them, they do the same for us (apart from the feeding, no way am I eating a rabbit my dog has killed :smt078 )

My dogs even 'fight' amongst themselves for the top spot beneath the people in the family (one dog always has the best bed, best spot in sun....). You must have noticed that as a dog gets older it tends to lose its higher rank. Even if the older dog is fed first by the owner, gets the best bed, is petted and played with first, the younger dogs will find ways of asserting their dominance over it; you may find that it gets moved out of its bed by the others. I've noticed that younger dogs don't have to growl, they'll just use their body to push an older dog out of the way (say when the dogs are arguing over who gets petted first, the younger dog will just push the older dog out the way so that it gets petted first). Of course younger dogs will always be trying these sorts of things, but the difference is the older dog will stop fighting back, it just submits to the younger one.

Lizzy, you write interesting posts

Is that a good thing or a bad thing though?!!!!!!