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Prager Hans
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02-09-2011, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Malka View Post
Sorry, I probably did not make myself clear. Pereg does not have a spinal deformity as such, just a skeletal frame which causes here not to be able to lie on her back, but no, she has not had a spinal Xray as it is not really important to her whether she can, or cannot lie on her back.

She has no spinal or other mobility problems, therefore it is just one of those things and not important.

Pereg will Sit on command - either voice or hand signal. Same with Stay. Also Down and then "roll over" but her roll over is only part way with front and rear upper legs waving. She just cannot do any more.

It is not important. There are no doubt loads of things she cannot do, but she is a happy little girl and that is far more important than the things she cannot do.

There are lots of things I cannot do, but in the scheme of things do they really matter?

I am [mostly] happy with my life and I know that Pereg is always happy with her life - because she has no knowledge of the Monster hitting her and once that episode is over she is just Pereg. My girl.

So she cannot lie on her back. So she cannot roll over. Not really important, is it.

I just feel thoroughly ashamed with myself of having to try and force her into an Alpha Roll when I first heard of it. I thought I was a failure. But then I realised that it was not only a stupid thing to try, but that Pereg just could not physically do it unless I physically forced her.

And no way will I ever even try to force my Pereg to do anything.
What breed is Pereg?
Prager Hans
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Malka
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02-09-2011, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans View Post
What breed is Pereg?
Prager Hans
Pereg is a mutt - a mongrel - a mixed breed of no known background, rescued by me from a shelter as a tiny unwanted puppy. She is now ~two and a half years old, spayed, and currently weighs ~20 kilos, which is 2 kilos more than I would like.

Physically and structurally she is sound. She just happens to be epileptic - and I love her, whether she can roll over or not.

http://i1099.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1310916135
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Prager Hans
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02-09-2011, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Interesting website you have there , it was very informative.

You say in your terms of sale .. that at any time any dog you have sold, and it becomes to aggressive for the owner to deal with, you will take it back and replace with another of equal value.( words to that affect)

Can I ask what you then do with the aggressive dog that is returned to you...

And why breed dog that may turn aggressive in the first place given the need to include such a clause in your policies!
That is simple:
I retrain it and resell it to forever home in a situation where the dog can function normally without any conflict.

Some of you may think that they live in perfect world and dogs do not, or will not or can not turn aggressive.
I am involved extensively in behavior modification of dogs (30+years) and let me tell you that any dog of any breed can turn aggressive. Aggression means overly protective of their owner, property or object, food, area or overly dominant over their owner. This is invariably caused by improper training and socialisation of the dog. That does not mean that the dog is bad or that the owner is bad, but what it means is that the relationship between the dog and the owner is bad. Behavioral modification means fixing this relationship. If we do that the problem will go away. I can say that because I can take such dog back and modify his behavior and change unwanted aggression. I personally believe that every dog is able to function in society as long as we find him/her the right place to live in and train and socialize him/her properly. Some would rather put such dogs down, however I do not believe in such solution. If ( not necessarily my dog) the dog for what ever reason do not fit anywhere at given time I will keep him/her until they die. I call this crowd of dogs in my place gingerly "the old and ugly" and they are usually my favorite dogs.
So far I had only one dog from my breeding program which I had to replace for aggression in 30+ years. The rest were retrained and stayed in their family.
Prager Hans
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Prager Hans
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02-09-2011, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
No, working /protection dogs should not be aggressive,
Now there is a statement which says volumes.
Again I will repeat that any dog in specific situation will be aggressive and will bite.
To avoid confusion here.
I devoted my life to preserve the old style GSD the way it was originally intended by its creator max v Stephanitz.
I am devoted to preserving these type of dogs in old style Czech GSD. these lines were best expressed in z Pohranicni straze breeding program. This breeding program does not exist anymore, but the creator of this program is my close friend and partner and we have these dogs in our heart. I breed, import, ( and export) train, sell and most of all love these old style Czech dogs.
In order to comment on the above amazing remark I would like to say that in my book good working dog should be sociable if necessary, or aggressive if necessary (meaning the owner believes it is necessary). Such dog needs to obey his owner and stop being aggressive and defuse it's aggression according to it's owner wishes. ( There is a difference between "control" and "diffusion" of aggression.
Here is one of our boys:

Prager Hans
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Jackie
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02-09-2011, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans View Post
That is simple:
I retrain it and resell it to forever home in a situation where the dog can function normally without any conflict.

Some of you may think that they live in perfect world and dogs do not, or will not or can not turn aggressive.
I am involved extensively in behavior modification of dogs (30+years) and let me tell you that any dog of any breed can turn aggressive. Aggression means overly protective of their owner, property or object, food, area or overly dominant over their owner. This is invariably caused by improper training and socialisation of the dog. That does not mean that the dog is bad or that the owner is bad, but what it means is that the relationship between the dog and the owner is bad. Behavioral modification means fixing this relationship. If we do that the problem will go away. I can say that because I can take such dog back and modify his behavior and change unwanted aggression. I personally believe that every dog is able to function in society as long as we find him/her the right place to live in and train and socialize him/her properly. Some would rather put such dogs down, however I do not believe in such solution. If ( not necessarily my dog) the dog for what ever reason do not fit anywhere at given time I will keep him/her until they die. I call this crowd of dogs in my place gingerly "the old and ugly" and they are usually my favorite dogs.
So far I had only one dog from my breeding program which I had to replace for aggression in 30+ years. The rest were retrained and stayed in their family.
Prager Hans
How do you modify said dogs behaviour.

As for being naive about dogs behaviour, I dont think so, living with a reactive dog for 8 yrs sees to that.
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Prager Hans
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02-09-2011, 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by TabithaJ View Post
LOL, point taken.

Though to me it is a refusal to answer; I've asked Mr Hans four times and he's refused to answer. That to me is a de facto refusal

It doesn't matter; I've now lost interest in the answer.
Here is my response.
I would like to answer your question and i will, but I do not care to be unfairly ridiculed by some here, just for the sake of getting a rise out of me ,... where such attemts had been done already regardless what I have said.
However, since I want to and I have promised to answer the question I have started to write the answer on the concept of correction. .....and I am still writing it. I can not just say here a one liner to answer, because I do not care to be misunderstood. Thus I went into details which are (lenght wise) beyond the scope of this thread and even this forum. I realize that here are some who actually would like to learn what i have to say and do not just lay in waiting to attack people with opinion which differs from theirs.
This thread and this forum was actually a quite a learning experience about human nature for me and when I started writing my response I have realized that in order to be clear to as many people as possible I need to write what I have planed to write long time ago. Extensive and comprehensive and clear article on this topic. When I finish it, I will publish it on my website and then you can go and read it. I can not advertise my website here, it is against the rules. But most of you are savvy enough to figure it out. Most of you already have.
I live a happy life with my dogs and I do not need nor care to be target of pot shots here. That is why, yes, I will answer, but elsewhere and if you really care to know the answer , than you will be able to look it up. I will alert you to it.
Prager Hans
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WheatenDaneMom
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02-09-2011, 03:36 PM
Prager Hans ... your GSD is gorgeous!
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Jackie
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02-09-2011, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans View Post
Now there is a statement which says volumes.
Again I will repeat that any dog in specific situation will be aggressive and will bite.
To avoid confusion here.
I devoted my life to preserve the old style GSD the way it was originally intended by its creator max v Stephanitz.
I am devoted to preserving these type of dogs in old style Czech GSD. these lines were best expressed in z Pohranicni straze breeding program. This breeding program does not exist anymore, but the creator of this program is my close friend and partner and we have these dogs in our heart. I breed, import, ( and export) train, sell and most of all love these old style Czech dogs.
In order to comment on the above amazing remark I would like to say that in my book good working dog should be sociable if necessary, or aggressive if necessary (meaning the owner believes it is necessary). Such dog needs to obey his owner and stop being aggressive and defuse it's aggression according to it's owner wishes. ( There is a difference between "control" and "diffusion" of aggression.
Here is one of our boys:

Prager Hans
I think my statement says exactly what it means, in answer to the remark that protection dogs should be aggressive, there is a mistaken belief that dogs with aggression issues make good guard /protection dogs.

From those I know who train in such work, the consensus is that only dogs of sound / stable temperament should be used in such work.

Controlled aggression (bite work) is not the point I was making, so I think we may be saying the same thing

Drive and ability should not be confused with aggression, after all, you you don`t want a dog to act on his own initiative, that is driven by pure aggression.
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TabithaJ
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02-09-2011, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans View Post
Here is my response.
I would like to answer your question and i will, but I do not care to be unfairly ridiculed by some here, just for the sake of getting a rise out of me ,... where such attemts had been done already regardless what I have said.
However, since I want to and I have promised to answer the question I have started to write the answer on the concept of correction. .....and I am still writing it. I can not just say here a one liner to answer, because I do not care to be misunderstood. Thus I went into details which are (lenght wise) beyond the scope of this thread and even this forum. I realize that here are some who actually would like to learn what i have to say and do not just lay in waiting to attack people with opinion which differs from theirs.
This thread and this forum was actually a quite a learning experience about human nature for me and when I started writing my response I have realized that in order to be clear to as many people as possible I need to write what I have planed to write long time ago. Extensive and comprehensive and clear article on this topic. When I finish it, I will publish it on my website and then you can go and read it. I can not advertise my website here, it is against the rules. But most of you are savvy enough to figure it out. Most of you already have.
I live a happy life with my dogs and I do not need nor care to be target of pot shots here. That is why, yes, I will answer, but elsewhere and if you really care to know the answer , than you will be able to look it up. I will alert you to it.
Prager Hans


I appreciate that you are perhaps not enjoying the forum much at present. However, when you post on a public forum, you take the risk - as do we all - that others may passionately disagree with your ideas and methods.

I look forward to reading your response - it would be great if you could post it here and just let me know how you define 'correction'.

The trainer that helped me with Dexter, my rescue Lab, defined it as a 'gentle tug of the leash' and she used this very effectively. I know many people do not agree with using the leash in this way but it did work with my dog and he continued to totally adore our trainer

Your GSD is stunning, by the way.
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Jackie
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02-09-2011, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Prager Hans View Post
Here is my response.
I would like to answer your question and i will, but I do not care to be unfairly ridiculed by some here, just for the sake of getting a rise out of me ,... where such attemts had been done already regardless what I have said.
However, since I want to and I have promised to answer the question I have started to write the answer on the concept of correction. .....and I am still writing it. I can not just say here a one liner to answer, because I do not care to be misunderstood. Thus I went into details which are (lenght wise) beyond the scope of this thread and even this forum. I realize that here are some who actually would like to learn what i have to say and do not just lay in waiting to attack people with opinion which differs from theirs.
This thread and this forum was actually a quite a learning experience about human nature for me and when I started writing my response I have realized that in order to be clear to as many people as possible I need to write what I have planed to write long time ago. Extensive and comprehensive and clear article on this topic. When I finish it, I will publish it on my website and then you can go and read it. I can not advertise my website here, it is against the rules. But most of you are savvy enough to figure it out. Most of you already have.
I live a happy life with my dogs and I do not need nor care to be target of pot shots here. That is why, yes, I will answer, but elsewhere and if you really care to know the answer , than you will be able to look it up. I will alert you to it.
Prager Hans
I think you need to stop being so sensitive, and get over the fact that many here don't agree or believe in your ethos of training methods.(alpha roiling)

From what I understand the usual forums you frequent seem to be full of people who hero worship you, and maybe its simply down to the fact you have found one that does not, and challenges your methods and beliefs.

You have a choice, if you don't like to hear others think your understanding of hierarchy and dominance is bumpkin and outdated, then simply stop reading .

No one is forcing you to continue.
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