Ramble, that comment just takes the cake. Me ARROGANT. It's you that is constantly banging on about how CM does it all wrong (well of course with all the books you've read its obvious you know so much more than CM ) and how I can't read a dogs bodylanguage and so on and so on and so on............. You want to read, that's fine. You want to follow Victoria Stilwell (just as an example), that's also fine. It's YOU that basically shouts down anyone that values CM and some of his methods. I won't read about understanding a dogs body language. Not because I know it all but I know all I need to know about my dogs through a close bond and through personal experience. I have no desire to have some class, dealing with other peoples dogs, so no need to sit through hours of waffle of what someone "thinks" a dog is displaying. It's all hearsay and opinion. You might find it interesting to read what someone else thinks (not knows) but I have a brain of my own and enough experience with my own dogs (past and present) to understand them. I don't profess to know it all, I leave that to you and a few others on here. My ego doesn't have a problem. I don't feel the need to put anyone down for their beliefs and training methods.

Have a look at this thread, virtually all of the pages are anti-CMers putting down pro-CMers (or trying to - not very successfully I might add).

I haven't put anyone down for their opinion CC just offered alternatives.
If you know all you need to why watch CM in the first place? Have you read his books? Why even bother coming on here then?
I use Dogsey as a place to hear other people's opinions and learn from them...I have learned a great deal on here from people I massively disagree with...and also from people I agree with (two examples at either end of the scale would be Borderdawn and Wysywig). Borderdawn has actually managed to change my opinion...well almost...!!!!!

I can never know enough about dogs...and I never,ever,ever will...nor do I feel I will ever know enough about how I can improve my relationship with my own dogs and those dogs around me.

That's all a bit of an aside though.
As I say I am genuinely interested to find out what you mean about dogs that see their owner as leader not having a recall issue.

I'm dipping in on this last post purely 'cos I'm dashing out for the evening.

I had to say about Hal and agility. About 6 years ago I took him to a Northern Inuit show in Blackpool, and they had an agility course set up just for fun. I took Hal round, no competition, no pressure, just for fun. He flew round until he came to the high plank. I have no idea what it is called, but there was a ladder which they had to run up and then run along the high plank and down the other side. He balked at this obstacle, no, under no circumstances was he going to do it. He was scared of it. He was a stubborn old git was Hal, so I thought heck we are going to be hear for a long time. No-one was waiting to come past as it were, so I stuck at him with him, calmly but firmly walking him up the plank, keeping him moving forward with me on the ground but holding on to his collar, and then the lead as he got higher and higher. As soon as he dug his toes in and stopped, I would turn him round, take him back down and start again. Eventually, after about 15 minutes, maybe longer, I got him up on the high plank, where again he lost momentum. But I kept running forward, not looking at him (this works well with horses), until the lead went tight. For a split second I was pulling him, and I called Come in my most positive voice and after that moment's hesitation, he followed me and down the other side. I kept the momentum going and he weaved like a collie through the weavy thing, and then we came to the tunnel. He dug his claws in, he did not want to go through that tunnel. Unfortunately, somebody wanted to use the course, so I had to give up, but I would have got him to run through that tunnel, without any treats, any gadgets, just calm but assertive energy, moving him forward.

And this happened BEFORE I heard of Cesar.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, but I do think you would have mastered the seesaw far quicker with a different approach. If a dog is not happy with a situation, then I believe it is OUR job, as the Boss for want of a better word, to lead the way, show them that there is nothing to be frightened of. After all if it had been life and death that the dog mastered the seesaw ... say you had wanted your dog to leap from a second floor bedroom window in a burning building ... you wouldn't really have time would you to fanny about for 3 days with treats!

I think if you can work through the problems as they occur, on the ground, with the dog and win through, you can achieve so much more.

This really is only my personal opinion and as I say, there are more than one or two ways to skin a cat.

Off now to get drownded !!

I don't bother to argue the case against CM anymore, if people wish to use harsh and cruel methods on their dogs sadly nothing we say here will influence them or those looking for a quick fix to any behavioural problems in their dogs.

As Joedee says CMs harsher methods are not new, many of us knew about them and rejected them years ago.
Thankfully the majority of people who use this forum are practised in the methods of positive reinforcment .

Interestingly here is one of CMs failures..
http://www.latimes.com/features/home/la-hm-krieger25-2009jul25,0,2987125.story
...we don't get to hear of many of CM's failures although our own Wysiwyg (someone with a comprehensive knowledge of dogs for whom I have the greatest respect) has spoken in previous threads of trainers she has had contact with in the USA who are picking up the pieces of those who have followed the advice of CM, how many more CM failures are there I wonder . No doubt people who fail after consulting CM think the lack of success must be their fault so are reluctant to speak of their failures and so little is heard about them.

The person in the clip above seems to have tried just about every method of training including CM ,typical of those looking for a quick fix.
What myself or any person advocating positive training methods would have recommended in this instance would have been to teach the dog (using desensitisation) that men /strangers are not a threat but can be associated with a pleasurable experience. No choking or alpha rolling necessary, and certainly no 'dental work' after the failure of CMs 'idiot simple' methods .

If people wish to kick and choke their dogs that is their choice. Personally I don't experience any behavioural problems with the dogs I train, they listen to and obey me eagerly because the bond of trust between us is very strong, they have never had any reason to distrust me and don't know the meaning of fear.

This puts me in mind of training a dog to sit. You can force it's bum down with a bit of gentle pressure..or guide it's neck up with gentle pressure from a lead and collar whilst saying 'sit' firmly and hopefully the dog will cotton on.

Or you can use a clicker.
If you use a clicker the dog will learn to problem solve and think for itself and will be more able to learn new behaviours quickly in the future.

Yes..you can make a dog do something with a gentle lead tug...or you can teach it what you expect and teach it how to learn. I opt for the latter. I can teach Cosmo who has been clicker trained from day one, new behaviours in one 5 minute session and you can see him thinking 'what is it she wants me to do'...and then you can see the penny drop. It's so brill. It is obvious however that Tango has not been trained like that and doesn't know how to think things through..bless...it's a long process....

Come on Ramble, you just want to rip apart something else that I say, be honest

Super post!!!!!!!

So very well said!!

No. You made a statement about your dogs not having recall issues because they saw you as leader and I wondered what you meant.

"kick and choke their dogs" - really, all these pages and still the same old, same old, it's sooooooooooooo boring. This subject never moves on and it cannot when all the same stuff comes up "kicking" "choking" "stringing up" - that isn't all that CM is about yet it's all that can be dragged up to discredit him. I give up. Some people won't listen Pointless talking when people only see what they want to see