Sorry if I've offended anyone by my long posts ~ I certainly wasn't intending any criticism but having spent many a long hour trying to get to grips with operant conditioning, -ve & +ve reinforcement, -ve & +ve punishment etc, I do realise that it can be very confusing. Then on top of the theory you have to think on your feet when actually doing the training or observing dogs ~ not easy & takes lots of practice! I'm still getting to grips with the practicalities & I take any opportunity I can to observe dogs just when out & about, to try to work out for myself what is going on.

Rune ~ I'll have a look at the site you mentioned.

Wysiwyg ~ I'm with you on the use of stooge dogs & in the example you gave, I don't think that the outcome would be as intended. If an aggressive dog is reacting to a stooge dog (e.g. lunging/barking etc) then stops reacting & the stooge dog is removed ~ would the aggressor dog really learn that that reason the stooge dog is removed is because the aggressor dog stopped reacting? It may learn that barking/lunging followed by a pause removes the stooge dog ~ if you're lucky! It may learn that standing very still, staring at the stooge dog, with tense muscles & possibly raised hackles, will result in the removal of the stooge dog ~ is this really what we want the aggressor dog to learn? Would this reaction really help a fear-aggressive dog to cope with the presence of another dog? Operant conditioning principles alone are certainly not enough to help in this sort of situation.

It's all very well knowing the theory behind operant conditioning but, as I've said, this isn't the be all & end all of dog behaviour. There are many other factors to take into account as well. What about classically conditioned behaviours? Fear responses are one of the most ingrained & common classically conditioned responses so using solely operant conditioning principles is not going to have much effect & could actually make the fear response worse.

Plus the physiology of behaviour is crucial to getting to the bottom of behavioural problems ~ once a physiological response has started & the autonomic & endocrinal response to say, fear or stress, is in play, then this can have a huge effect on a dog's ability to learn anything at all, let alone how to be calm in the presence of perceived danger.

I think that modifying behavioural problems in dogs, especially extreme behaviours such as fear & aggression, is something completely different from dog training. Yes you can probably get away with having a good knowledge of operant conditioning principles when training new behaviours to a dog with no behavioural "baggage". But modifying problem behaviours is a whole different kettle of fish & requires a hell of a lot more knowledge than just operant conditioning principles. This is why I've always said that dog training classes can be great for teaching an owner how to train new behaviours but modifying problem behaviours requires the help of a properly qualified canine behaviourist ~ not a dog trainer.

really? why do you feel a dog trainer cant help with modifying problem behaviours?
Are you fairly active in dog training?

In CAT two things happen The dog is tied somewhere with the owner at its side. As soon as the stooge (person or dog) causes the slightest body reaction the stooge stops and the handler moves away. When the dog relaxes the handler moves back and the stooge goes away.

Then the process begins again.

The dog learns (and IME quite fast) that the 'good' body language gets a result and the 'bad' body language does not.

It doesn't stop the dog being stressed by the approach, it does teach it that if it wants the support of its handler it has to behave in a certain way.

I didn't use a stooge dog as people were the problem.

I have used my dogs as stooges on occassion and Tassle uses one of hers. Of the dogs I have now Celt is fantastic and I would use him with no worries but never Etta. George was fantastic at teaching other dogs they didn't have to be frightened of dog/dog interaction and Merlin was great with aggressive dogs because he was confident.

It comes down to recognising stress reactions in your stooge dogs and knowing when enough is enough IMO.

rune

Blimey----thats told the trainers hasn't it!!!!

I like to think I have modified a good few behaviour problems with my dogs, other peoples dogs and dogs in rescue.

Obviously I am just kidding myself as are many of us!

rune

DITO

DITO again
That said more often than not I take the ones behaviourists refuse to take...lol

I think different methods work for different dogs & handlers. The Deferment technique that I described in a previous post worked for me and Daisy. Because she had learned / been taught to react hard and fast with no warning, and was generally tense, I`m not sure the CAT method would have worked for her. Whereas for Shamus (big scaredycat) it would have, and we used a similar method (allowing him space and time) .
All good stuff.
The only method I wouldn`t countenance is the one where some macho twonk tries to prove his/her superiority by brute force and ignorance.

Yes I am active in dog training but I don't think I ever said that operant conditioning doesn't have a part to play in modifying problem behaviours. What I said was that operant conditioning is not the be all & end all of behavioural modification. There's a hell of a lot more to it than operant conditioning principles.

If someone who calls themselves a "dog trainer" also has relevant & good knowledge of all the different aspects that affect canine behaviour & can take all of these into account when modifying behavioural problems, then they are probably better than someone who took a degree in animal behaviour 20 odd years ago. But if they are qualified to that extent & have the scientific knowledge & practical experience that goes with it, then they are probably doing themselves a disservice to call themselves a "dog trainer" ~ they are much more. They may still run dog training classes but hopefully their behavioural knowledge will allow them to know that dog training classes aren't necessarily right for some dogs & that certain behavioural problems can't be solved by operant conditioning principles alone.

Of course operant conditioning can play a huge part in modifying some behavioural problems ~ but if other factors aren't taken into account as well, then it may not be enough ~ or, worst scenario, it can make a problem worse.

I'm not putting down all dog trainers & I'm sure people here have been able to help a lot of dogs ~ all I was pointing out is that there is far more to behavioural modification than operant conditioning.

I think whatever terms we choose to use (and I think some of them can be very confusing ) most of the people on Dogsey who have anything to do with training dogs on a regular basis don't recommend the use of any training method which will cause pain, discomfort, induce fear or lead to further behavioural problems in a dog.

I think we are fortunate in having a number of very good trainers and people with an excellent understanding of dogs on Dogsey who can be called upon for advice and from whom we can all learn. They may not all use quite the same terminology but the methods they describe can be clearly understood .

Sorry Wilbar but I find your posts patronising and arrogant.

You say you are active in dog training, maybe we would feel less put down if you told us a little more. Your opinion would maybe be more respected if we knew exactly where you were coming from with your experience.

Me---I have trained dogs since I was a child 50 + years ago, I have competed at agility, flyball and HTM. I have shown a dog briefly, entered a working trial and open obedience. I have had numerous dogs of various breeds, usually rescues with problems who couldn't go elsewhere. I worked as a behaviourist/trainer with a local rescue for
6 years and many years ago I ran classes. I have been to many seminars and workshops. I am a trained teacher and worked with metally and physically handicapped kids where behaviour programmes and consistency are paramount.

Your turn

rune

And from what I've seen on Dogsey I wholeheartedly agree with you ~ the vast majority put a dog's health & welfare at the forefront of everything they do. And I'm sure that the advice given to people here is very well-intentioned & often good & helpful advice.

But I still have reservations that sometimes a bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing ~ we've all seen unsuspecting dog owners taken in by the likes of CM etc!!

In the majority of cases the advice given is very helpful but in more serious behavioural problems, like aggression, where the dog's life may be at risk or there is a danger to the public, I feel that, in some circumstances, it may be dangerous to offer advice. Usually we don't know the dog in question & we are relying on the descriptions & interpretations provided by the owners ~ there is a risk that what is happening is misinterpreted, & the advice given can be wrong. With serious behavioural problems I think that the best advice is to ask your vet for a referral to a properly qualified canine behaviourist. However again, this is not risk-free as the animal behaviour industry is not regulated, so anyone can call themselves a dog behaviourist/counsellor/psychologist.

And in case anyone is confused by what I've said in previous posts, I think good & experienced dog trainers have a huge part to play in educating owners about training methods. Advice on how to stop a dog pulling on a lead, teaching basic commands, agility, toilet training a puppy & all these sorts of problems are usually well within the remit of a decent dog trainer. But some behaviour problems are much more serious & perhaps we all need to recognise that there are limits to the help that can be offered on a dog forum.