Dog/human co habitance? training aids?

There are so many 'training aids'? for dog owners/trainers. How,when and from where/whom did they originate? Are people becoming obsessed(confused even ) to certain degree with so many of these things and looking for a 'quick/easy fix to mold a dog/s to fit into a human lifestyle and ways and confusing dogs also? Dog/human relationship has existed for thousands of years without any gadgets or gizmos. How is it so called 'feral children' have survived? Think there is much to be learned from wolf/dogs and how they they discipline/ respect each other in order to survive. How many people have dogs but worry about them 'spoiling the furniture or garden', whatever', they are dogs! If any one is going to bring a dog into their lives, do the research, be prepared for the slobber, mud, and all the rest of it. Any thoughts?

Most "NATURAL" dog behaviour is stuff most humans dont want.

Barking, digging, mouthing, guarding, communicating, herding, hunting, stalking, chasing, biting, eating poo, rolling in stinky stuff, stealing things, killing things......etc. All normal dog Behaviours. Which will develop according to genetic predisposition and learned opportunity.

Training, is a way to modify natural behaviours or replace them with something incompatible with their natural, often "unwanted" behaviour.

Sometimes the behaviours need vigorous training and effort to replace or remedy. Sometimes they dont. The secret methinks is to PLAN what it is that you DO want yopur dog to do . Yep what you DO WANT your dog to do and fill its time with those things, so that the other unwanted stuff has less or no opportunity to occur or develop.

Couple of points

Historically indivadual dogs were more expendable, if it didn't fit in pts or get rid, of course that happens now but there is more of the long term commitment now.

Historically there were less restrictions and more acceptance of certain behaviours. Nowadays there is less, regardless of your opinion of it thats the reality!

Way back we needed dogs (and maybe they needed us) because it was a symbiotic relationship, they could hunt/track/guard for us. As the relationship progressed this was shaped into more complex behaviours herding/retrieving/guiding. Now with a few exceptions the average human has no need for a dog.
If your survival depends on your dogs doggy natureyou probably don't care about the less appealing aspects of it. If your survival doesn't and may even be inhibited by the dog as an extra burden your less tolerant.

Are quick fixes and gadgets bad, as long as they work I don't think so. If an e collar/prong/halti means a better life for both whats the problem?
It may not fulfil are dreams of ultra relationship that just happens because of how we and the dog relate but it allows us to have as near as possible whats the problem?

Adam

If I understand the original post.

Wolves/Dogs were domesticated by those who saw their potential in the wild for hunting and tracking wild animals, they would exploit the potential of these dogs and then reward them afterwards with scraps, after slowly becoming accustom to humans the dogs started working more closer with humans, this is where the protection comes from (I believe) then as humans and dogs grew with each other and humans started to have the technology to manipulate the animals genetics then breeds came about then jobs for certain breeds came about. As humans have become more technological, most dogs have become pets and lost their jobs - hence the amount of behavioural issues we see today by dogs who have not been fulfilled and ignored and their natural instinct have been ignored because they are only "pets".

Intresting point and I do believe that however great behaviourists are today - no one really understand a dog also the amount of genetic modification has changed behaviour. Before AKC etc, going back to the first domesticated dogs, people didnt breed for certain things and yet got all the things they wanted though understanding them. And I do think that us humans are far to obsessed with having the perfect dog - ok so a dog that did everything the first time etc. but wheres the fun in that?

I also think the inventions that us humans use such as cars, have ruined what a dog is all about. Before cars - how many dogs were on leashes? (I mean way before cars) I think with the modernisation of us humans and the obsessiveness with germs and perfection in our world today has caused us to look at animals differently - years ago we wouldnt have minded if our rabbit went to the toilet where it was supposed to sleep, we wouldnt have bothered with a dog that rolled in mud - it would just stay outside - mine still do . And my puppy has just come in with a snow covered ball and is chewing it up in the room.

So I do think we strive to achieve perfection and are quite obsessed with it and our animals are not on the same level as us. Dogs have come a long way through their many years with humans - but how much more can they change.

We feel that these tools we use help us understand our dogs but do they really?

You put a halti on a husky to stop it pulling - it was designed and bred for that. You zap a JRT for displaying JRT behaviour, most owners just put a bowl of food down without thinking like a dog - of course no one can do that but we can simulate it - I walk my dogs and have the ball thrower for retrieval before their dinner in a sense that they have worked for it, they eat after we do - little things to keep us repectful of them and them - us.

Of course all these training aids are not bad - such things as flyball and agility is working a dogs mind but it is fun for us. Only those "crazy" enough would go out in all weathers and shoot with their dogs or herd sheep in the highlands - of course these jobs are still around and dogs are still usefull.

I could write more but I am tired and I think I'm just rambling - feel free to ignore what I've put if it makes no sense to the original post - I have had a few glasses of wine

I think we also live in closer quarters with our dogs these days than people did say 50 years ago. My mums childhood dogs were let out to roam and do their doggy things and keep themselves amused. So were all the other dogs she knew. These days we keep our dogs in the house and garden most of the time and the things they'd left to do if left to their own devices (which probably weren't noticed or weren't a problem years ago) aren't the sort of things we want them doing so we have to find ways around it.

Thankyou for your interesting replies, they make a lot of sense. I don't think there is anything wrong with using something that works for both dog and owner to resolve a problem if done correctly, without harm. My dog and I spend a lot of time together, I try do dog things with her, even trying her food, grooming and playing in as much a dog way as possible(this could be wrong of me but we have a good time and she seems to enjoy ) The few years I was without a dog were some of the worst of my life and as a human do have a great need for a dog, they are the best

Yup - even when I was growing up, so within the last 25 years, our family dogs were kept outside to live in a brick outhouse. They had a heater for winter and lots of blankets but they were only allowed to sleep indoors on the rare occasion, e.g. a thunderstorm. I would say it's only recently that indoor dogs have become the norm over dogs being in kennels/outbuildings and so we've had to find a quick fix to the problems that go along with this, such as chewing furniture, housetraining, etc.
I think non-harmful gadgets and gizmos have their place - I'd rather people made their dining table legs taste bitter than chuck their dog out in the cold for chewing, a Halti can at least ensure that a dog gets walked, and then the owners can attempt to train a calmer, well-exercised dog to walk to heel, than its pulling getting worse and worse until the owners no longer want to walk it. As long as they're viewed as aids, not quick fixes, I don't see any issue with most of them.

I think new owners start (as new parents do) with loads of `aids` then over the years discard them because they learn they are not really necessary, except for certain occasional use. Like safety gates when introducing a new puppy.
Most of these aids hadn`t been invented when I got my first dog!

Adam[/QUOTE]

As the relationship progressed this was shaped into more complex behaviours Are quick fixes and gadgets bad, as long as they work I don't think so. If an e collar/prong/halti means a better life for both whats the problem?
It may not fulfil are dreams of ultra relationship that just happens because of how we and the dog relate but it allows us to have as near as possible whats the problem?

Adam[/QUOTE]



Didn't take long...... what was it, third post..............