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lilypup
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08-04-2010, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Discomfort and pain are imo different. If my arms in bright sunlight and too hot that's uncomfortable and I move my arm (negative reinformeent) if my arms in a fire I also move my arm but that's painful (also negative reinforcment). The e collar sensation is the equivilant of the former not the latter.
You said IMO. That is just the point here. It is your opinion that shock collars don't hurt. Your opinon. It isn't a fact. Pain thresholds can differ massively. A bull type dog can withstand far more than say a spaniel. I know myself, that I find the injection given by a dentist to be excruciating, to the point of reducing me to tears. I also know people who say it is nothing more than a 'scratch' to them.

I think you will agree that these are two wildly different opinions about the same thing.

This is why I do not agree with any type of negative training. Pain equals fear. I believe negative training methods work on fear based practice.
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Tupacs2legs
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08-04-2010, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Rune, I'm 24

CAD, Dogs were much happier after the training.

Tupac, he was on a lead when he broke loose and got the first 2. He was contained in the house when he slipped and got the 3rd. HE wasn't let off (outside of an enclosed area, which they recently lost the use of) at all until I became involved. He now is and is very much happier.

Adam
24!!!! and you feel you have tried other methods to their full???.......says it all you are a wee baby that just wants quick fixes
the mal...its one excuse after another...slipped a lead how?? collar wasnt tight enough then was it
i use one round my waist as well as one from the neck...this mal will kill again...as said poor poor dog
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Wysiwyg
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08-04-2010, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Wyswig

If it's painful there not trained in the same way I'm training.
If what is painful? sorry you've lost me.

You may not believe the -r with the ellies is the same as with the e collar but I do.
We will have to agree to disagree. I haven't got much time to keep debating just now.

I've pointed out myself both are -r but that doesnt' make them the same.

Other things apart, the dogs are restrained by lead and not allowed to move off, the elephants choose to participate. A bigger difference there could not be.

My training involves lots or pr.
The toys etc are a stress reliever... the dogs realise that is when they don't get shocked.


Wys
x
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wilbar
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08-04-2010, 02:32 PM
I've been having a rummage round t'internet for info on the use of punishment in general & the pros & cons of +ve pun/-ve reinf vs +reinf/-ve pun.

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour (AVSAB) has position statements on these points (plus references to various studies if you want to read the full version but these extracts are relevant:

"Even when punishment seems mild, in order for it to be effective it must elicit a strong fear response, and this fear can generalise to things that sound or look similar. Punishment has also been shown to elicit aggressive behaviour in many species of animals. Thus, using punishment can put the person administering it or any person near the animal at risk of being bitten or attacked."

"Positive punishment and negative reinforcement involve aversives, force, coercion or physical corrections. Many companies refer to their products as negative reinforcement products when they are actually punishment products because the goal is to stop a behaviour by adding something the animal dislikes, e.g. ultrasonic anti-bark devises are punishment because their goal is to stop barking. Whether a technique is punishment or reinforcement depends on whether the predominant goal of the technique is to stop a behaviour (punishment) or increase it (reinforcement). In the case of negative reinforcement, it's important that the aversive should stop as soon as the animal starts behaving appropriately."

Adam ~ in the light of the above, do you agree that ecollars are punishment because, in the context you use them, their goal is to stop sheep chasing (or even looking at sheep). You are not using them to increase the behaviour of looking at you, or looking at the sky, or looking at their feet, you are using them to STOP them looking at sheep, therefore, using operant conditioning principles, ecollars are instruments of punishment because they are used to stop a behaviour.

Secondly, using the same principles of operant conditioning & punishment in the form of ecollars, "even when the punishment seems mild, in order for it to be effective, it must elicit a strong fear response". So regardless of your opinion that the dog only gets a "mild" shock, or that in your opinion, the outward behavioural signs are not that of a normal strong fear response (because the dog is not yelping, screaming, cowering or whatever) ~ you must now agree that if the ecollar IS working because the sheep chasing or sheep looking behaviour is stopping, then the ecollar MUST be working as positive punishment.
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ClaireandDaisy
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08-04-2010, 03:13 PM
Adam - I don`t believe you`ve evert trained a dog properly. Prove you have. Give us a case study. A real one. One of the abused dogs you electrocuted will do.
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rune
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08-04-2010, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Rune, I'm 24

CAD, Dogs were much happier after the training.

Tupac, he was on a lead when he broke loose and got the first 2. He was contained in the house when he slipped and got the 3rd. HE wasn't let off (outside of an enclosed area, which they recently lost the use of) at all until I became involved. He now is and is very much happier.

Adam
Thats what I thought.

24 is too young to be as sure as you are about the fallout from what you are doing.

Not only are you 24 but you have no real experience with actually training a dog to do anything more than be a pet.

Hopefully you might learn in a few years---OTOH you may not. Sad for the dogs you might damage.

rune
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Emma
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09-04-2010, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
I've been having a rummage round t'internet for info on the use of punishment in general & the pros & cons of +ve pun/-ve reinf vs +reinf/-ve pun.

The American Veterinary Society of Animal Behaviour (AVSAB) has position statements on these points (plus references to various studies if you want to read the full version but these extracts are relevant:

"Even when punishment seems mild, in order for it to be effective it must elicit a strong fear response, and this fear can generalise to things that sound or look similar. Punishment has also been shown to elicit aggressive behaviour in many species of animals. Thus, using punishment can put the person administering it or any person near the animal at risk of being bitten or attacked."

"Positive punishment and negative reinforcement involve aversives, force, coercion or physical corrections. Many companies refer to their products as negative reinforcement products when they are actually punishment products because the goal is to stop a behaviour by adding something the animal dislikes, e.g. ultrasonic anti-bark devises are punishment because their goal is to stop barking. Whether a technique is punishment or reinforcement depends on whether the predominant goal of the technique is to stop a behaviour (punishment) or increase it (reinforcement). In the case of negative reinforcement, it's important that the aversive should stop as soon as the animal starts behaving appropriately."

Adam ~ in the light of the above, do you agree that ecollars are punishment because, in the context you use them, their goal is to stop sheep chasing (or even looking at sheep). You are not using them to increase the behaviour of looking at you, or looking at the sky, or looking at their feet, you are using them to STOP them looking at sheep, therefore, using operant conditioning principles, ecollars are instruments of punishment because they are used to stop a behaviour.

Secondly, using the same principles of operant conditioning & punishment in the form of ecollars, "even when the punishment seems mild, in order for it to be effective, it must elicit a strong fear response". So regardless of your opinion that the dog only gets a "mild" shock, or that in your opinion, the outward behavioural signs are not that of a normal strong fear response (because the dog is not yelping, screaming, cowering or whatever) ~ you must now agree that if the ecollar IS working because the sheep chasing or sheep looking behaviour is stopping, then the ecollar MUST be working as positive punishment.
Originally Posted by lilypup View Post
You said IMO. That is just the point here. It is your opinion that shock collars don't hurt. Your opinon. It isn't a fact. Pain thresholds can differ massively. A bull type dog can withstand far more than say a spaniel. I know myself, that I find the injection given by a dentist to be excruciating, to the point of reducing me to tears. I also know people who say it is nothing more than a 'scratch' to them.

I think you will agree that these are two wildly different opinions about the same thing.

This is why I do not agree with any type of negative training. Pain equals fear. I believe negative training methods work on fear based practice.
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Thats what I thought.

24 is too young to be as sure as you are about the fallout from what you are doing.

Not only are you 24 but you have no real experience with actually training a dog to do anything more than be a pet.

Hopefully you might learn in a few years---OTOH you may not. Sad for the dogs you might damage.

rune
Brilliant posts!!
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Emma
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09-04-2010, 02:29 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
24!!!! and you feel you have tried other methods to their full???.......says it all you are a wee baby that just wants quick fixes
the mal...its one excuse after another...slipped a lead how?? collar wasnt tight enough then was it
i use one round my waist as well as one from the neck...this mal will kill again...as said poor poor dog
I have that horrible feeling too, from what I have read, they require stronger and stronger currents from the e-collar as their instinct still can not be quashed by painful stimuli It may not have happened yet but one day................
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MichaelM
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09-04-2010, 03:23 PM
I previously posted this on another forum, but the topic was locked and we weren't allowed to discuss it - hence my being here. Nothing like a controversial topic to get started with.......




I believe that those seeking (those who sought in Wales) to have the E-collar banned are (though well intentioned) doing a disservice to dogs welfare. If I was being cynical, I'd suggest that in supporting this ban, both the KC and the RSPCA are doing nothing more than using it as a smoke screen to cover their own failings.

The Accredited Breeder Scheme is ludicrous (Caroline Kisco's inbreeding),
and there's the issue of the RSPCA regarding bolting of the GSD's. Dog fighting is alive and well, and Camarthenshire is known for it's puppy farms - these two issues are of much greater harm to dog welfare, but are more difficult to eliminate.

Listening to those against the collar (e.g. the Kennel Club's Sian Edwards), the implication is that the collars are used as a first choice method of routine training - no one is advocating this.

When the puppy farms have been closed down, and dog fighting has been stopped, when line breeding (close inbreeding) is no longer acceptable, and owners aren't buying pups then letting them go because they're too big/wife is pregnant/making too much mess etc etc (take a look at free-ads to find a ny number of reasons), maybe then would have been the time to look at e-collars.

In my opinion, the wrong fight has been picked to promote animal welfare. It's made the headlines, but it's a hollow victory, and both the RSPCA and the KC have been gifted a cloak to hide behind.
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ClaireandDaisy
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09-04-2010, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I previously posted this on another forum, but the topic was locked and we weren't allowed to discuss it - hence my being here..
Most people Introduce themselves first!
Still -if you want to enlighten yourself, have a read through these links

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/negativ...-shock-collar/
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/apbc-re...consultations/

I find it amazing that so many men just come on forums to discuss punishment. Personally, I`d much rather talk about my lovely dogs.
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