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Location: Yorkshire, UK
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,890
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11-11-2009, 11:37 AM
Originally Posted by scarter 
For what it's worth, the government conducted a study into this and their finding was that there was no evidence to suggest they were cruel and that many people were using them successfully to improve the lives of their dogs (make them safer, give them more freedom etc).
If I tickle my dogs while they're messing about, they do it all the more - not much of a negative marker. Also, I have heard of people trying to stop chasing (of game) using them, but I wonder whether training them to adhere to an entire boundary using an electric shock collar would require an awful lot of electric shocks. The dogs aren't going to percieve a boundary through this method unless there's one marked. If it's an unfenced field, I think it would require a lot of shocks, but if they're only a tickle, hey, they might enjoy it!
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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11-11-2009, 11:46 AM
Can she please give a link to this `study`?
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Location: Lancashire UK
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 588
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11-11-2009, 12:12 PM
I would also be interested in reading this study by the government. How can they say it isn't cruel? Have they tried it on themselves and deemed it just a tickle? If they haven't I would be quite happy to put them all in a field surrounded by electric fence and wearing collars to suit. Tell them to run through the fence and ask them how they felt afterwards.
You seem to indicate what a good dog trainer you are, Scarter, yet you are now thinking shock collars and fences. That's lazy when you are such a good dog trainer.
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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11-11-2009, 12:16 PM
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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11-11-2009, 12:29 PM
Here is what the KC has to say.
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/293
This is old but the preliminary findings...
http://www.publications.parliament.u...ru/52/5212.htm
333. We understand from Defra that it believes the current scientific evidence with respect to these devices to be ambiguous and therefore considers it is not in a position to prepare proposals either to regulate or ban them. Defra has told us it is considering the feasibility of undertaking a research project into the devices, as a matter of priority. If electronic shock collars and perimeter fence devices have indeed been in use in the UK for 13 years now, as one submitter claimed, then we are surprised that Defra has not yet undertaken sufficient research into these devices in order to have formed an opinion of them, particularly given the controversy surrounding their use. We urge Defra to undertake a process of consultation and research about the possible regulation of these devices as soon as possible.
334. At this stage, it seems to us that an appropriate approach to electronic shock collars and perimeter fence devices would be to outlaw their use for purposes of training except, perhaps, with the exception of suitably licensed veterinarians. On the basis of the evidence we have received, we do not oppose the use of these devices to contain dogs within a particular area without the need for fences. However, we emphasise that this is very much a preliminary view; we would certainly seek to hear further evidence on this issue before taking a view on any future draft regulations seeking to control this area.
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Location: Preston, Lancashire
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,648
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11-11-2009, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by scarter
Many people have a knee jerk reaction against the use of electricity, but consider that the tens machine (used to alleviate pain) does so by delivering small electric shocks.
It doesn't feel like an electric shock, just a vibration.
I don't use mine on the most sensitive part of my neck - and I also know when the sensation is going to happen and why!
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Location: dogsville
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 16,141
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11-11-2009, 12:32 PM
Jonathan Shaw: I refer the hon. Member to the reply given on 18 Mar 2008, Official Report, column 945W.
Mr. Dai Davies: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs if he will make an assessment of the animal welfare consequences of the use of electric shock (a) collars, (b) mats and (c) leads in training dogs. [209515]
Jonathan Shaw: My Department is aware of a number of scientific studies on these devices, but considers that to date those studies published are not sufficiently robust. Further research into these types of collars is a priority. An Open Competition Call was published in DEFRA's annual research requirements document in August 2005 inviting bids for research on the effect of both electronic and non-electronic training aids on the welfare of dogs. A single proposal was received in response to the call but it did not satisfactorily meet the advertised requirement and it was rejected.
In July 2006, DEFRA circulated a revised call for research in the form of a limited tender call. The call invited proposals for studies to assess the effect of specific electronic pet training aids (excluding electric fences) on the welfare of dogs. The call encouraged an epidemiological approach, based on observation of collars already in use. One proposal was received in response to the call and a study commissioned which is due to complete in 2010.
DEFRA has also asked the Companion Animal Welfare Council, advisory body to Government on companion animal welfare matters, to undertake an independent study of available evidence on the use of these electronic training aids to help inform policy and complement the DEFRA funded study.
The study will not cover electric mats and leads. We are not aware that these devices are used to any significant extent. If they do cause a dog to suffer unnecessarily then it would be possible to bring a prosecution under the Animal welfare act 2006.
Mr. Drew: To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs when his Department’s research into electric shock collars will be completed; what the cost of the research is; and when he expects to decide on whether to ban electric shock collars. [210180]
Jonathan Shaw: The study to assess the effect of electronic training aids on the welfare of dogs commenced in 2007, and it is expected to be completed in 2010 at a cost of £469,000. Details of the research project are available on the DEFRA website. We will not be making any decision on whether to ban electronic training aids until we have considered the results of the completed research project.
May I suggest Scarter, with the upmost respect, that if you cannot contain your dogs in the meadow, you exercise them elsewhere, or on a longline until such time as you can.
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Location: Glasgow, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 810
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11-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs
so are my sibes!
you choose to have this breed,did you think you were the one to 'change them'?
i find fenced in areas and different activities to furfill their needs not a 'lazy option'
a tickle is not going to stop something as determined and stubborn as say a beagle or a sibe!
if it is just a 'negative marker' as you say then surely you can train your dogs with a different method?
imo,it is nieve for you to say it doesnt hurt,i take it the goverment think its fine to use with children that the parents cant be bothered to keep an eye on too
we are talking pet dogs not cattle!
We had 18 months of our dogs (the oldest at least) running free and she thrived on it so much that I'm willing to go the extra mile to find a way to keep her doing that safely. It may or may not be possible but I see no harm in researching things properly rather than making snap decisions about certain methods without being in possession of the full facts.
If I tickle my dogs while they're messing about, they do it all the more - not much of a negative marker. Also, I have heard of people trying to stop chasing (of game) using them, but I wonder whether training them to adhere to an entire boundary using an electric shock collar would require an awful lot of electric shocks. The dogs aren't going to percieve a boundary through this method unless there's one marked. If it's an unfenced field, I think it would require a lot of shocks, but if they're only a tickle, hey, they might enjoy it!
All that you are saying sounds like very reasonable theory. Yet I'm finding lots of people that have used the method and the results are very different from what you expect. As I understand it, it's not just a case of popping on the collar and 'zapping'. There is a training program to follow. Most people seem to report that the dog only gets zapped once or twice and never goes near the fence again after that.
I don't have firm views either way about whether to use this. It's just an approach that sounds very promising when you talk to people that have actually used it. And the in-depth government funded study doesn't back up popular belief that the method is cruel. So for anyone with a problem, perhaps even a life-threatening problem, that is hard to solve with other methods I think it makes sense to at least research all options and get the facts before making a decision.
As I said, I think we all do what we think is best for our particular dogs. One person might consider restricting the dogs activity to be a kinder approach than using an e-collar. Others might view things differently. Users of electric fences are telling me all that happens is the dog gets a very mild 'tickle' (I have felt it myself - against my throat - and it didn't hurt) once or twice and they never go near the fence again. If this is true then I personally consider this far kinder than restricting the dog's off-lead activity or putting it at risk of a road traffic accident.
But as of yet I don't have enough information to make a firm decision. Most people seem to be in the same boat, with many thinking that it's similar to the electric fences used for stock.
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Location: Preesall, Lancashire
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,622
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11-11-2009, 12:38 PM
They have been used to it since they were little and it does not bother them anymore...
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