And vice versa ClaireandDaisy

I think there is confusion between the flexible pack structure exhibited between dogs in groups and the idea that any group of dogs has a fixed `pack structure` which is unchangeable except through challenge or death.
Of course stroppy / big / female dogs take the lead over `anything for a quiet life` type dogs. However this changes to suit the circumstances.
I don`t see how a human training a dog can expect the animal to `obey` because of their status. The dog doesn`t know your status. The dog knows what he has learned through experience. If the dog has discovered that A follows B and B is nice, the dog will try to do A again.

Have I seen you in a dedicated working dog or Mal forum?

Anyways, what you are doing is taking an aspect of an interactions and then applying it as if were an integral part of the individual.

I would bet that if you paid close attention, the pack is not really a pack. Is the pecking order you percieve there everywhere? For a ball, for a tug, to meet a family member, food, park, other dogs. Does one dog claim everything and every time? Of course not. Each dog may place a different value on things and will assert itself over the others accordingly; this is the (V) that the researchers are talking about.

I read everything, even if I disagree. How else would I could I comment on something I haven't read.

To start it would be helpful if we had a definition of dominance in terms of this paper, they use the ethologist definition , dominance is normally defined as “an attribute of the pattern of repeated, agonistic interactions between two individuals, characterized by a consistent outcome in favor of the same dyad member and a default yielding response of its opponent rather than escalation. The status of the consistent winner is dominant and that of the loser subordinate” it doesnt mention about using dominance theory in training. It assess dominance in this way to see if it is a useful relationship descriptor. It proposes that prior experience and associative learning is in their experience a more likely explaination for dog vs dog aggression.

there is no evidence for or against dominance theory with relation to dog human interactions. I for one would like to read a paper on this, and maybe see another argument for 24 pages lol

Although we can look at the credentials of those doing a study, where it was published, the methodology, etc., in the end, we must ask how well it explains behaviors we see.

It was a question on another site about a dog that rolls over on it back and urinates that reminded me of this. It the past this was labeled submissive wetting and building the dogs self confidence seemed to help. Another thing I remember was Kate at about 2 months old thrown in with 8-10 other puppies up to a year old. Kate was a very assertive little Lab. There were a couple of larger Shepherds that seemed to think she needed to be down on her back. We only had Daisy and Peggy both for a month or 2. They were continually sniffing each other's butt. Butt sniffing has been interpreted as an elaborate form of dominance and submission based on whose idea it is.

While I oppose much of the harsh ways of asserting your place in the pack, I see pack rank as a very important tool to understand and control behavior. Science is about what works in the real world.

Mother = pure wolf, father was wolf cross.

Actually, what you should have said ClaireandDaisy is that this would have been an interesting thread had everyone agreed with the findings !

It is the fact that I have the nerve, the cheek to argue with the authors of the paper that you don't like !

Well I'm sorry, but I am not a sheep, if I disagree with something, I will say so. B-a-a-a-a-a !!

I agree, there was indeed much that is extremely interesting in the paper - thanks Labradork for supplying me a copy ! But I am still less than happy with the subject material. Sorry, call me argumentative, an attention seeker, gobby, whatever, I don't care. If I think something is wrong I shall say so.

or we could not talk about Gnasher........

Rescues abroad frequently keep dogs in one compound. In fact some in this country do, and the dogs get on well that way. Dogs are far less stressed in a group situation than if isolated, so `kennel stress` is an emotive but man-made term. I would expect a dog to exhibit stress if alone, rather than if in a group.
Has anyone read the full report? Do you know how the study subjects were kept?

Off topic posts will be removed shortly.

This thread is in one of our more serious sections - so please be -extra- careful not to post any off-topic replies. We aim to archive these sections as a useful resource. Thanks.

I've got the full paper thanks to Labradork, but I just haven't had the time to sit down quietly and read it. It is chaos here .. and so HOT !! Not that I'm complaining.