Maybe shes just a needy clingy character, we all know people like that & in general they dont have many friends

I think you are right sometimes---but a dog that wees submissively is generally accepted to be a submissive dog---would you agree with that?

That doesn't generally happen unless the dog is submissive in the majority of situations with other dogs and/or humans. Dogs that greet their humans with a grin are saying what?

If you do agree then there has to be the opposite as well. So there are dogs that are dominant in all situations.

To say that they are not dominant because they don't want something enough doesn't mean that they couldn't have that something if they did want it.

rune

Or if its scared.

In my view, to study any group of dogs or wolves, or any other canids or indeed species and draw a conclusion that all groups, within the same species, behave the same, is a a very limiting view indeed. One which may often negate the "need" for further learning. Which is not a good approach for general understanding.

it would be like studying a homeless family in Birminham, the royal family, or a small tribe in the outbacks of Africa and trying to apply their structure and behaviour to all humans - it just wouldn't make any sense!!!!

My family is not even the same as my neighbours and neither is yours.

I believe that as in humans, in canids, there are assertive ones and less assertive ones, natural communicators, mother types, hunter types, aloof ones, timid, bold or gregarious ones, teachers, leaders and followers.

I also believe that there are some general "types" of behaviors that are adopted or instinctual in some individuals , whether they are live in groups or not. There are in my experience, policing dogs, nanny dogs, and aggressor dogs, protector dogs, watchdogs etc. Some of these behaviourss are instinctual to some degree, I believe all of these behaviours are usually heightened with learning, experince and age.

Dogs which live in true groups, adopt them more readily, without the interference of humans. Dogs who socialise most often, become more powerfull in whatever role they have adopted and can with experience, or out of group "necessity" . adopt or other required roles.

I think everyone's experience is valid, every point of view worth hearing, but I think that given that we really cant even fully understand the way that humans interact, (and we are human and can talk and write down our thoughts and emotions), then it is highly unlikely that we will ever fully understand the way that dog groups work.

The day we do, is the day that I will stop asking WHY??? and will therefore probably just keel over and die. My life having become rather meaningless!

You got me confused there. If Mech is observing wild wolves and they are in the wild then how can the environment be artificial?

If Shaun Ellis lived with wild wolves then how can having a human as a pack member make a pack natural?

I WAS interested, thats why I asked.

Mech was observing wolves living on a relatively small island - Ellesmere Island. This is unscientific and unnatural - due to the possibility of inbreeding, lack of food resources and other issues. I believe there were several packs involved, not just one pack, but either way, not scientific at all. Differing packs of wolves do not live close to each other, and they have to have sufficient land to be able to move on when they need to. This would not be possible on a small island, and would thus create an artificial environment.

Shaun Ellis lived with a pack of wild wolves, and seeing as THEY accepted him as a pack member, not the other way round, I cannot see a problem with listening to what he learned. He has nothing to gain either way - whether he says he believes in wolf rank, or whether he believes in David Mech's theories, he still makes a living out of his wolves at Combe Martin. David Mech gets to sell a shedload of books, magazines, lectures, etc. etc. all over again but doing a complete volte face. Call me cynical, but I smells a rat!

lol, I am just using the terms people on here use
But I say a dog can choose to display submissive gestures towards another dog
one dog does not dominate the other, one chooses to submit
I dont believe that makes them a submissive dog - just that they have submited

Mia towards buster is v low on the ground and wiggly, sometimes peeing, she will sometimes roll on her bakc. Then she bounces on him from underneath licking his muzzle, then spinning round smacking her bum then her nose in his face - then they zoom of and have great fun playing

Buster creeps up to Jock, head on the floor tip of tail wagging, some face licking

Jock, pretty similar greeting Mia