Its a tragedy more like

It will just lead to more popularity and therefore more churning out of pups to sell to people who think BCs are born ready trained then dump them when they realise there is actually a lot of work involved in bringing up a Collie well

patch i know what you mean some of the leo lines seem to be more interested in a compact leo for the ring than the size and shape of the breed should be, the club are addressing this as a issue as we are going to lose the sheer size and power of the breed if it continues but it is also a fact that alot of the judges seem to go for the smaller leo's in the ring so it encourages the breeders to try and produce them.
i have been told at a show tob was too big he was onlt 15 months at the time still growing.
i don't like the fact some breeders try to change the lines to produce a show type if they allow genetics to play its part then some will be show and some workers.
if i ever breed i would be more concerned with the health stability and inbreeding side of it over the size of the frame of the dogs.

its a shame some breeders will try and change genetics to suit their ideas rather than letting the breed continue in its natural form.

How is me caring about the welfare of a breed I am passionate about nasty or harsh

If by welded to legs you mean dogs doing Obedience, they need brains to learn and apply the elements in Obedience but it doesnt mean they do that `in your skin` work outside of the Obedience ring/class for day to day life !

Which collies are you talking about ?

Rough, Smooth, Bearded or Border ?

The real working Border Collies haven't been affected at all by the showring(something many people seem to miss)they are still being bred for what is between their ears & not for the showring, but there is nothing to stop breeders using ISDS dogs to better the show dogs

My next dog will be shock horror a KC only registered BC-the first one I have ever owned but the awful NZ dogs in his pedigree will be cancelled out by his obedience/ISDS lines The first litter from the breeding are real working type dogs & go back on to some really good working BCs(sheep not KC working)He will even be related to my Rjj who is a working bred BC

Mmm cant agree with you there Patch, I have seen some awfully confused dogs behaving extremely irratically when trying to do obedience.
Dawn.

Now as an obedience judge I've never seen irratic behaviour in any dog in the ring-some curious head & body positions but they have been taught

BTW very close heelwork ie laying on is incorrect not JMHO but according to the KC rules & Regs

Yes Dyane, my brother in law did competition obedience many years ago with his GSD and being stuck to the handlers leg was penalised.

By erratic I mean I have seen dogs given command which they interperet very wrongly then appear "panicked" all dogs make mistakes I dont dont that for one minute, but I watched a few dogs that genuinely seems panicky and erratic when doing things wrong. I also saw a dog turn and walk backwards during an obedience class, probably due to the fact it did HTM!! Those kinds of confusions in a dog worry me.
Dawn.

Border Collies. My comments are a projection of what I believe will happen, I tried to make it clear that its early on yet so there are still some brains being retained in show dogs [ Collies ], at the moment, but I dont believe that is how it will stay when genes for a certain look will be more important than anything else.
Like the cases of idiots breeding merle to merle in the attempt to produce merle pups for appearance over health...

Those kind of confusions are caused by handler error at some level, same as agility. If something goes wrong, unless its something like a scent or other unpredictable occurence, but in terms of a dog not knowing what to do or being confused or getting something `wrong`, thats down to the handler doing something wrong, not the dog.

If you don't know much about current obedience then you could be watching partly trained dogs working a new class to them

Gone are the days when everyone entered the two lowest classes they are elligible for & work them both most people when they have won out of Beginners will only actually work one class & either train the higher class or not even enter it until they have to

People do loads of training rounds in B(tell me about it I've judged five this year)& less than half the class actually work in the round to try to win the rest use it as training. It's a trend that has grown over the years, when I first started in 1964 you weren't allowed to train in the ring so if you entered two classes you worked them

Which shows & classes have you seen this confusion in ?

In B there can be lots of failures in sendaway & scent because they are harder that the other set exercises in the lower classes. Most peoiple will train the exercise once their dogs fail an exercise

In C there are failures in things like ASSD & DC because the handler dogs give the commands correctly to the dog

I had a dog fall apart in my ring on saturday nothing to do wih it's breeding Just a thoroughly nasty piece of work as a handler-he was told verbally by me in the ring as to what I thought of him-loud enough BTW to be heard at the ringside I don't tolerate handler abusing their dogs even if in the ring it is only verbally

The tests can also be set by judges to try to get the dogs(& handlers)to fail I don't I try to make it simple so the dogs can succeed There are enough things to mark without setting traps